Why were we breaking paint?

[Iceman]

So, my friends and I had a frustrating day of play yesterday. There were only four of us, but we all broke paint... repeatedly. Half of us broke paint when we were just setting up and test firing. It took us an hour to get onto the field because we were having to clean the guns repeatedly. Then, when we were out on the field, almost everyone broke paint while skirmishing. We only played two games, and then called it quits early and went to a friend's house to play Halo 3. (I would have prefered to keep playing. I'm not that good at Halo.)

So... any ideas why we were having so much trouble?

Was it the weather? It was a little rainy, and it was 45ish degrees outside. Most of us were using CO2. Could the humidity and cold CO2 factor cause that many problems?

Was it the paint? The paint was kinda old. We were all using DXS bronze that I bought back in August, but it's been in my temperature-controlled basement since then. I swear I've used year-old paint before with less problems than this.

I don't think it was the guns. Two of the guys had Spyders, but they usually don't have this many problems. I had my pneumag (with LX, of course), but even I broke paint twice in my Scepter barrel. Another guy was borrowing my classic mag. He broke paint in the Boomstick barrel during both games.

Any ideas? My friend thinks that it was the paint, but I'm hoping it was the weather. I still have a case of that paint leftover, and I'd really hate to toss it all.

[BigEvil]

Drop a few balls from waist high. If they break they are no good. Sounds to me like you had bad paint. Once you start breaking them, it only gets worst.

[Thotograph]

The paint is most suspect, especially if you broke with your lvl-x pneumag... but I would say that the weather shouldn't be overlooked either. Def drop test at least ten balls. Catch them after they bounce (if they bounce) try dropping first at waist height... if they don't break then move to about 5feet and repeatedly drop and catch and see what the average # of bounces it takes for each ball to bust. Throw out the high and low number... be sure you're doing this on concrete and at room temp.

If paint gets wet it doesn't do to well. Also did you all check the match with each barrel? The fact that all four guns had relatively the same issue leads me to think it's the paint... but as well the weather seemed less than ideal from what you described. Did the paint get much exposure to the moisture?

It being cold could also play a factor. Lol it was freezing in my house the other day (okay it was about 40degrees, but thats cold for a Floridian... the heat had been off all day). I accidentally dropped a ball from maybe 4 feet onto my wood floor. It split perfectly in half and the paint just stayed in the two halves... only one drop was on the floor. It was really strange and funny. Now its normal again, yay Florida :nana:

I think it was several factors contributing to make the not so fresh paint highly susceptible to the breaks. Sorry to hear of your troubles. Better luck next time!

[Ruler_Mark]

it can be ****ty paint,, my friend was shooting ****ty paint and the balls just exploded 1/2way down the barrel. fl ftw

[AirAssault]

Drop test FTW. Or just pick a really big bore barrel and watch em go crazy!:crazy:

[Iceman]

The paint is most suspect, especially if you broke with your lvl-x pneumag...

Also did you all check the match with each barrel?

The paint does match each of the barrels pretty well. This is the same paint that we've all been using for the last year or so with almost no problems, so that's why it was especially weird to suddenly have it all turn bad.

Drop a few balls from waist high. If they break they are no good. Sounds to me like you had bad paint. Once you start breaking them, it only gets worst.

Good idea. I'll try this tonight and post the results.

[pontiac2m8]

There is always that chance that even though the paint barrel match was good the paintballs may have swollen to the point they dont fit in the barrel anymore and I would think doing the drop test may help show this.

[Iceman]

So I did the drop test.

I took five of the DXS bronze paintballs and dropped them at waiste hight onto my concrete frontwalk. Four of them broke on impact without bouncing once. The last one ricocheted into a brick and shattered.

I take it that's bad. :grr:

Just to make sure, I also did a drop test on some Nelson Anarchy that I had sitting around. Out of five paintballs, none of them broke on the first bounce.... or the second... or the tenth. I had to chuck them at my driveway to break them.

I was really hoping I could blame the weather, but this definitely confirms that the paint was the problem. I guess I'll have to throw out that entire case. :wall: I just can't believe it went back that quickly (after five months). I know I've shot paint older than that before.

Lesson learned, I guess.

[Hell-Bunny]

Drop a few balls from waist high. If they break they are no good. Sounds to me like you had bad paint. Once you start breaking them, it only gets worst.

your on crack man lol if the break for waist high their perfect.:banana:
means they will break on all the muppets ur shooting....weeee

[punkncat]

your on crack man lol if the break for waist high their perfect.:banana:
means they will break on all the muppets ur shooting....weeee


You have to take into consideration what they are shooting. For a high end low pressure tourney marker paint like that can be nice. For a high pressure blowback it is not.

[snoopay700]

So I did the drop test.

I took five of the DXS bronze paintballs and dropped them at waiste hight onto my concrete frontwalk. Four of them broke on impact without bouncing once. The last one ricocheted into a brick and shattered.

I take it that's bad. :grr:

Just to make sure, I also did a drop test on some Nelson Anarchy that I had sitting around. Out of five paintballs, none of them broke on the first bounce.... or the second... or the tenth. I had to chuck them at my driveway to break them.

I was really hoping I could blame the weather, but this definitely confirms that the paint was the problem. I guess I'll have to throw out that entire case. :wall: I just can't believe it went back that quickly (after five months). I know I've shot paint older than that before.

Lesson learned, I guess.

If i recall there's something you can try if you haven't thrown it out, put a glass of water in the bag over night and seal it and it should make the shell swell a bit and become more durable, so long as you don't spill the water. I figure if you've got nothing to lose why not try it.

[TnDeathInc]

i have ok ability to shoot fragile paint dropping it waste hi and it breaks, but i generally try and buy marbalizers.

now remmeber theres a middle ground really frgaile paint breaks easily on target thus less bounces, less than fragile paint does better in a mag in most cases but youll get occassional bounces.

[d4m4don3]

Paint formula depends on the when you buy it, theres winter formula and theres summer formula. Use the wrong type during the year and you can either have high bounce balls or a spray gun. Ussually when I get paint that breaks at waist height I reside myself to a pump day. The impact from the bolt on a sniper isn't as hard and it has a better chance of breaking either down the barrel or on some kid in the back. :clap:

[Iceman]

your on crack man lol if the break for waist high their perfect.:banana:
means they will break on all the muppets ur shooting....weeee

Haha.... I guess I didn't think about it that way. We definitely didn't have any bounces when we were playing with that paint, that's for sure.

Ussually when I get paint that breaks at waist height I reside myself to a pump day. The impact from the bolt on a sniper isn't as hard and it has a better chance of breaking either down the barrel or on some kid in the back. :clap:

Hmm.... I like this idea. I did just pick up an old Maverick pump gun for Christmas. Maybe this can be my super-fragile paint for pump play. :shoot: (I'll have to run a load through the pump gun and see if it fairs better.)

You have to take into consideration what they are shooting. For a high end low pressure tourney marker paint like that can be nice. For a high pressure blowback it is not.

So what about a mag, which is a high pressure blow forward? I had two breaks with my mag using this paint. One was early in the barrel (and it sprayed a little backwards into the breach, but no big deal). The other break was inside my Halo B hopper. (And let me say, hot dang! Cleaning out the inside of a Halo sucks!)

Is there anything I can do to my mag that will make it gentler on paint? Can I just put in a shorter LX spring and lower the fps?

[tymcneer]

We use pump guns with fragile paint all the time. You can shoot basically any type of junk paint with a pump, provided you are NOT interested in hitting anything. The only worries with a pump are chops caused by operator exhuberance and air blast causing barrel breaks. The sniper I use has been "sweet spotted" to around 250 psi, and is relatively gentle on paint. I believe Altec has taken the pressure down even farther, but you'd need to ask him.

Are you using a Level X? If so, you can use the longest spring (silver), but that still requires you to tune the LX. This will NOT reduce the air blast on the ball. It will change the amount of initial force placed on the paint as it is chambered.

Hope some of my rambling helps.

Ty

[Iceman]

Are you using a Level X? If so, you can use the longest spring (silver), but that still requires you to tune the LX. This will NOT reduce the air blast on the ball. It will change the amount of initial force placed on the paint as it is chambered.

I do have a Level X.

I was thinking that using a shorter spring would be better because, with the right tuning, the shorter spring would fire at a lower fps, thus reducing the air force on the paintball during firing. If properly tuned, I thought the initial force that the bolt places on the paintball should be the same no matter what spring you use.

Here's another way of saying it.

If longest spring provides 5 lbs of resistence (I'm just making up numbers, here), then the marker must use 6 lbs of air pressure to overpower the spring and fire.
......force of bolt on ball = 1 lbs
......force of air on ball (when fired) = 5 lbs

However, if the shorter spring only provides 3 lbs of resistence, then the marker can be tuned to use 4 lbs of pressure to fire.
......force of bolt on ball = still only 1 lbs
......force of air on ball (when fired) = 3 lbs

Is my logic right, or is there something I'm missing?

[tymcneer]

Sort of... I will put my thoughts in...

I do have a Level X.

I was thinking that using a shorter spring would be better because, with the right tuning, the shorter spring would fire at a lower fps, thus reducing the air force on the paintball during firing. If properly tuned, I thought the initial force that the bolt places on the paintball should be the same no matter what spring you use.


The tuning with the short spring will require less air pressure to make the marker cycle, but the amount of initial force will be higher. The initial force is the collision of the bolt with the ball to force it into the chamber. The less air pressure would, on the other hand, help to reduce barrel breaks. I personally think that the reduction in air pressure is not enough to make a serious difference, but we need someone that has more of a clue than me. Paging RogueFactor!

Here's another way of saying it.

If longest spring provides 5 lbs of resistence (I'm just making up numbers, here), then the marker must use 6 lbs of air pressure to overpower the spring and fire.
......force of bolt on ball = 1 lbs
......force of air on ball (when fired) = 5 lbs

However, if the shorter spring only provides 3 lbs of resistence, then the marker can be tuned to use 4 lbs of pressure to fire.
......force of bolt on ball = still only 1 lbs
......force of air on ball (when fired) = 3 lbs

Is my logic right, or is there something I'm missing?

Your logic is correct, but the inital force will not remain the same, unless you were to get real creative with the carrier assembly. The issue there is failure to fire... The sticktion (resistance to initial movement) would be very high, ad cause the marker to "act wonky" and not fire everytime. We have run into this problem before when people tune their LX too close to the edge.

The best answer is to play with it. Just write down the original working combination, so you can get back to it easily, if things don't work out well.

Hope some of this helped.

Ty

[Perentie]

Fun thing about decent pumps is the ability to shoot paint that drops from 12" to 18", was having serious problems with a Borg and Mag with that kind of paint, think of the Hellfire Mag Blender Video's :lol2:

[p8ntbal4me]

I had the same problem beginning of last years season.

I bought EVERY gun I owned at the time that I would play with. I think it was 12.

Every gun broke paint,... and it wasnt till a week later that I figured out what I could have done to fix it.

My buddy has a PTP Micromag with a PF. He has an X-Valve/Level 10/ULT.
He ran the short 6" barrel and had ZERO breaks. He was rapid firing as well.

We all shot the same paint,.. but I was given 4 different types to try out. I tried it in guns that have eyes, no eyes, slow rates of fire, you name it.

I went out in the back yard, grabbed the paint from the cab of my truck (the paint was stored in 40 degree weather), slapped a short barrel on my R/T, and let it rip,..... 1 break at the very tip of the barrel. Zero breaks in the gun.

The paint at the field has its own room, space for 2 skids at one time, a walk space around and between each skid, radiant floor heating/cooling, and is climate controlled with some HVAC system. The paint was a steady temp from the moment it arrived to the moment I bought it.

You guys that are having trouble with "good paint",.. try a really short barrel,... see if it makes a difference.

~ P8nt

[Iceman]

I thought I'd give an update on this...

I ended up following tymcneer's advice and swapping out the red spring for the silver spring in the LX. After tuning, there was a noticable difference on the initial force.

I got to try out the new set-up this weekend, and I was very pleased. I used the same, fragile DXS bronze paint, and I had a few barrel breaks, but I had NO breaks in the breach (unlike last time when I had the red spring in the LX). I just shot through the barrel breaks, and I had a pretty good day.

Thanks for the help, ty! :wthumpup: You saved me a case of paint.

[tymcneer]

Glad I could be of some help... guess I need to update the useful post count ;)

Ty

[Altec]

I believe Altec has taken the pressure down even farther, but you'd need to ask him.



About a week late, but why not? I did get a cocker down to about 120psi. No real tuning besides some light springs. Only got about 500 shots off a 68/45, but it was fun! I think with a custom bore bolt, and a little valve work I could have gotten a lower PSI, or higher efficiency.

With something like a Merlin, and a big enough valve, you can get under 100 PSI. I remember one guy talking something like 82PSI!

If you wanted to do something like that without a Merlin body, you could get someone to bore out a pump guide rod. That will almost double the dump chamber! The biggest thing is custom matching the bolt, and a good valve IMO.

Not that any of this matters on a mag though. :clap: