A new perspective at the speed vs accuracy debate

[B-Pow]

it is true that speed is "expensive" but when I really thought about this I realized that it can actually be cheaper to rely on a guns bps than actual accuracy.

Before I get flamed for this, hear me out...please

so johnny paintball wants to play.

negating what both players would need (mask, pack, squeegies...blah blah blah)

what you need for speed:
quick gun: °°°° can be had for sub 200 new
fair airsource: pure energy (steel) tanks can be had for less than 75 new
quick hopper: vl eye force (yes I'm even giving johnny the eye) 70 new
cheap °°° paint: seconds crap (who cares accuracy by volume right?) $25-$30
total: ~$350 for a solid 17bps...highly inacurate but that is not the end effect

what you need for accuracy:
CONSISTANT gun: (mags, well made cockers, nice pumps) 300-500 (big range I know for the total I'll use 350)
CONSISTANT airsource: (this really depends on the gun CO2 and a phantom get along well so well say same as the speed setup +/-) 75
cheap-o hopper: (why does it need to feed fast we are going for accuracy here) gravity loader ~$5
GOOD CONSISTANT paint: $50-$65 per case
barrel kit: what good is that constant paint going to be unless your barrel is going to work well with it, $150
total:~$630 (granted that paint might last for 2 trips, but that just evens out since it is almost twice the cost)

So for johnny he (or more realistically his parents) can spend half the money and johnny can be a paint spraying player.

I will concede that I am making some assumptions in this argument that consistant gear is required, however we all know that with enough pratice even a player with inconsistant gear can become reasonably accurate. But on the flip side I am also ignoring the ammount of "pratice" and investment of time and money (paint, entry, air...yadda) it takes to be that accurate.

I am not saying one is better than the other, and I am well aware that if you are thrifty and quick you can get all that gear for cheaper, for BOTH setups.

Just something to think about that is realtively new with the advent of cheap fast guns, and might help explain why there is and will be for quite some time a large group of accuracy by volume players.

[RogueFactor]

Nothing wrong with accuracy by volume as long as you pulling every shot, and not a computer. This is a sport that was originally, and should remain based on shooting skill. Not the technology of a computer chip and program.

Had this sport not gone that direction, Johnny would be paying:

Tippman: $130
Air Source: CO2 tank, $20(can be filled almost anywhere)
Hopper: Shake n Bake: $5
Cheap Paint: 1/2 your figure, since he wont be shooting as much:$12.50-$15

Total: <$165

Someone who is shooting fast should be doing so with their skill. Not a store bought computer chip.

[B-Pow]

Nothing wrong with accuracy by volume as long as you pulling every shot, and not a computer. This is a sport that was originally, and should remain based on shooting skill. Not the technology of a computer chip and program.

Had this sport not gone that direction, Johnny would be paying:

Tippman: $130
Air Source: CO2 tank, $20(can be filled almost anywhere)
Hopper: Shake n Bake: $5
Cheap Paint: 1/2 your figure, since he wont be shooting as much:$12.50-$15

Total: <$165

Someone who is shooting fast should be doing so with their skill. Not a store bought computer chip.

However this is America, home of citizens who believe strongly in making a new device to make things easier on themselves.

Progress isn't always considered progress by all...take word processors and computers...would it be better if we all went back to using typewriters for everything? The use of processors and boards in markers can be approached from the same direction. Personally I have never played in anything but semi and I have tuned my triggers to just the right spot where I don't get bounce even if I try.

I have had an 1on as my first electro and in the first outing with it I was able to peak rof at the 17pbs, and sustain at least 12bps in semi...I am not special, anyone can do that. I played with Tyger's e-mag before I got my first electro with Xmod 1.7 capped at 15 and was able to sustain the 15 with my right in the early games that day. Later Tyger said that electros are "fun" and getting those kinds of ROF with a micro switch is painfully easy, I had to agree.

Long story short I am still talking about one pull one shot.

[RogueFactor]

However this is America, home of citizens who believe strongly in making a new device to make things easier on themselves.
This is a sport, not a job. We dont play sports to 'make things easier'. Sports exist to test skill.

Progress isn't always considered progress by all...take word processors and computers...would it be better if we all went back to using typewriters for everything?
When did word processing become a sport?:nana:
Thats like saying they should have spell-checkers at the spelling bee because of progress. Or that we should allow the use of underwater jet propulsion systems in Olypmic swimming. Better yet, we could put a jet rocket on the back of sprinters. Thatll test their sprinting skills. Or how about bionic legs so that anyone can jump as high as pro basketball players.

Sport is about skill, not technology. Sport is about athletics, not technology. There is no skill in a computer chip. If someone wants to play paintball without the skill or athletics, they can play Greg Hastings Paintball on their XBox. Then they can use all the computer chips and technology they want.

[B-Pow]

This is a sport, not a job. We dont play sports to 'make things easier'. Sports exist to test skill.


When did word processing become a sport?:nana:
Thats like saying they should have spell-checkers at the spelling bee because of progress. Or that we should allow the use of underwater jet propulsion systems in Olypmic swimming. Better yet, we could put a jet rocket on the back of sprinters. Thatll test their sprinting skills. Or how about bionic legs so that anyone can jump as high as pro basketball players.

Sport is about skill, not technology. Sport is about athletics, not technology. There is no skill in a computer chip. If someone wants to play paintball without the skill or athletics, they can play Greg Hastings Paintball on their XBox. Then they can use all the computer chips and technology they want.

And what of other sports where technology has improved and been immediately integrated into the sport. Take any kind of vehicle racing, do you think the present day cars/trucks/bikes/etc handle the same as they did 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 40 years ago?

And what of bicycle racing, do you think the current day bikes are as (in)efficient as the bikes from decades past. I can guarantee you that skateboards have become stronger, have better wheels, and are more efficient (lose less energy due to friction in the baring assembles and such). Sports that rely on personal equipment have always had to grow with technology, what makes paintball any different.

[RogueFactor]

And what of other sports where technology has improved and been immediately integrated into the sport. Take any kind of vehicle racing, do you think the present day cars/trucks/bikes/etc handle the same as they did 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 40 years ago?

And what of bicycle racing, do you think the current day bikes are as (in)efficient as the bikes from decades past. I can guarantee you that skateboards have become stronger, have better wheels, and are more efficient (lose less energy due to friction in the baring assembles and such). Sports that rely on personal equipment have always had to grow with technology, what makes paintball any different.

Those are poor analogies. If the bicycle was doing the pedalling for the cyclist, then it might be a decent comparison . Or if the car or a computer was doing the driving for the driver, that would be a good analogy as well. Unlike those examples, a ramping marker does the shooting for the shooter. And this is a shooting sport, where one of the main skills is shooting. So technology should never replace the skill. Ever.

BTW, technology has been incorporated into paintball without removing skill. Better regulators, compressed air, lighter trigger pulls, faster cycling markers, double triggers, electronic markers(semi-auto of course).....all added to the sport without replacing the skill.

[B-Pow]

Those are poor analogies. If the bicycle was doing the pedalling for the cyclist, then it might be a decent comparison . Or if the car or a computer was doing the driving for the driver, that would be a good analogy as well. Unlike those examples, a ramping marker does the shooting for the shooter. And this is a shooting sport, where one of the main skills is shooting. So technology should never replace the skill. Ever.

BTW, technology has been incorporated into paintball without removing skill. Better regulators, compressed air, lighter trigger pulls, faster cycling markers, double triggers, electronic markers(semi-auto of course).....all added to the sport without replacing the skill.

your analogies you started with are just as poor if not worse than mine. They might make sense if I ever mentioned ramping (or if the paintball gun fired without any contact with the trigger, in response to your cycling counter-analogy) in any of my arguments. This whole thread was about accuracy vs volume and costs, not ramping vs whatever.

You really have a one track mind, you are the only one to bring up ramping and then change the topic to "ramping is evil".

[SCpoloRicker]

You can only play with Nelspots and shop goggles, newblars.

[RogueFactor]

If you want to argue that you didnt mention ramping, thats fine. You mentioned 'fast gun'. And there is no such thing as a 'fast gun' unless its shooting for you. Call that what you want(whether thats ramping/full-auto/rebound/burst/bounce/etc). All markers in semi-auto shoot as fast as the player can pull the trigger. So the marker isnt fast, the player is....unless you are ramping:D

But I will make a good analogy. Anything other than semi-auto paintball is the equivalent of T-Ball. Its for 6 year olds. Anyone older than age 6 who wants to play baseball doesnt use a Tee. The same should go for paintball.

[RogueFactor]

to rely on a guns bps
quick gun: °°°° can be had for sub 200 new
johnny can be a paint spraying player.
for a solid 17bps
the advent of cheap fast guns

Here are the 5 original statements that lead me to believe you were talking about ramping. Nobody relies on a markers bps, unless it shoots for them. A gun isnt quick in semi-auto, the player is. Ive never seen anyone spraying paint from a semi-auto marker(well, a few but those are exceptions to the rule). 17bps is something that most people cant shoot, without a ramping marker. And cheap fast semi-auto electros have been around forever(spyders).

So I guess I am confused, you werent talking about ramping markers?

[B-Pow]

So I guess I am confused, you werent talking about ramping markers?

I have been talking about semi-auto only. By fast gun I mean a gun that can be "walked" in semi at speeds that are, for lack of a better word, excessive. Many recreational players who own electronic guns play exclusively in semi (due to field rules and personal preferences) and even newer players, first season players, can walk an electro at over 12bps even if they start the season not knowing what walking is.

However (and I'm going out on a bit of a limb here) a fully mechanical (non-pneu'ed) marker with a user that is experienced with that particular gun <i>might</i> hit 12 bps (I know I can't yet with my cocker, and maybe never will)...if they are very talented. Where as a mush less experienced player can hit 12bps on a electronic gun (in semi) quite easily, and probably even on their first day out with an electronic gun. So when they have even a minor amount of experience a user with an electronic "fast" gun will be able to put out mid teens easily.

What used to take years of practice to attain has been made easy to do with the help of a "fast" (read electronic) gun.

[RogueFactor]

I have been talking about semi-auto only.

:footinmouth: My bad bro. I apologize. If you want me to I can delete my posts. I thought you were referring to ramp/etc.:footinmouth:

[CKY_Alliance]

Funny how biased the first post is for the "accurate" marker.



A fast gun with crappy paint is going to be inaccurate no matter what, so will a "accurate" (in your terms) gun with crappy paint.


Never mind reading your post is giving me a headache..maybe I'll try again tomorrow.

[skyguy]

It can actually be cheaper to rely on a guns bps than actual accuracy.

What is this “actual accuracy” thing anyway?

Ok, so your main points are basically:
1. “Accurate” guns are twice as expensive
2. Anyone can pull 12 bps with an electro trigger
3. 12-15 bps is that much different than 8-10 bps
4. If you have paint that is twice as expensive you will only shoot half as much (so it must be twice as accurate, right…)

You concede that you are ignoring mask, pack, squeegies...blah blah blah (field fees, air, pants, jerseys, batteries, parts, upgrades, maintenance, gas, and food) and the fact that anyone can get way better used prices than you estimated and that anyone who puts in the investment is probably gonna buy all this ignored stuff more than once. Could you also concede that a lot of fields across America do not give you the option of 25 dollar paint vs. their 65 dollar paint?

Considering everything you are ignoring to make your point, I don’t know how you can say that relying on bps is gonna be cheaper for any more than johnny’s first day out. I mean, we have to caveat that playing in the woods and playing x-ball are completely different things, tactics, techniques and procedures that work for one don’t necessarily translate to the other.

Not to mention that bps is more of an equalizer than anything else, having equal bps really just evens the playing field. If somebody picks a playing style they like, generally they will end up shooting as “fast” and as much as everyone else around them. Then on a time scale that is even close to a season or two I really feel like a beginner will spend twice as much if he shoots twice as much.

It’s not that hard to make a cheap, and I mean cheap gun, just as accurate in a practical (we’re shooting liquid filled gelatin spheres) context as any other paintball gun. Who hasn’t played with a pump when that kid with the sho cker comes and tells you that it was just because your sniper gun can hit him from across the field and around the corner. I mean, I just can’t imagine a world where firing 17 bps could be cheaper than see the bad guy, shoot at the bad guy, and hit the bad guy (isn’t that what actual accuracy is?) that’s all I guess.

Also how is this a new argument?

[B-Pow]

What is this “actual accuracy” thing anyway?

Ok, so your main points are basically:
1. “Accurate” guns are twice as expensive
2. Anyone can pull 12 bps with an electro trigger
3. 12-15 bps is that much different than 8-10 bps
4. If you have paint that is twice as expensive you will only shoot half as much (so it must be twice as accurate, right…)

You concede that you are ignoring mask, pack, squeegies...blah blah blah (field fees, air, pants, jerseys, batteries, parts, upgrades, maintenance, gas, and food) and the fact that anyone can get way better used prices than you estimated and that anyone who puts in the investment is probably gonna buy all this ignored stuff more than once. Could you also concede that a lot of fields across America do not give you the option of 25 dollar paint vs. their 65 dollar paint?

Considering everything you are ignoring to make your point, I don’t know how you can say that relying on bps is gonna be cheaper for any more than johnny’s first day out. I mean, we have to caveat that playing in the woods and playing x-ball are completely different things, tactics, techniques and procedures that work for one don’t necessarily translate to the other.

Not to mention that bps is more of an equalizer than anything else, having equal bps really just evens the playing field. If somebody picks a playing style they like, generally they will end up shooting as “fast” and as much as everyone else around them. Then on a time scale that is even close to a season or two I really feel like a beginner will spend twice as much if he shoots twice as much.

It’s not that hard to make a cheap, and I mean cheap gun, just as accurate in a practical (we’re shooting liquid filled gelatin spheres) context as any other paintball gun. Who hasn’t played with a pump when that kid with the sho cker comes and tells you that it was just because your sniper gun can hit him from across the field and around the corner. I mean, I just can’t imagine a world where firing 17 bps could be cheaper than see the bad guy, shoot at the bad guy, and hit the bad guy (isn’t that what actual accuracy is?) that’s all I guess.

Also how is this a new argument?

The point was that for johnny, who is looking at costs now and not costs later when they make their decision, the electronic paint sprayer looks good. Not only for the bps but also the price tag for entering the sport.

And I definately agree that most fields do not offer paint at $25 ever or /only/ 65 for the high end stuff, I was taking my prices almost directly off ActionVillage (I buy paint from there as a walk in customer, and play at a BYOP field).

The point I was making with the expensive paint was that there are less "wasted" shots and that I was trying to cut costs for both setups where ever possible.

Nothing I have said is fact, and I was not expecting it to be taken as fact, this thead was created as an observation of startup costs and a new way to see the debate over speed vs. accuracy, or a counter observation to playing pump/mechanical is cheaper.

[bryceeden]

I get what your saying, but in reality the new Spyders with thier improved regs and barrels are very very accurate, the difference in price for speed vs accuracy will be strictly in the paint. Spray and pray can use what ever, but accuracy needs premium paint to truly pull it off, and good paint is not an option at all fields. When it comes right down to it I would never buy another mag again just because for cheaper I can have a marker that is extreamly fast and just as accurate and consistant. If I want a Mech I'll shoot my Spyder. The high doller mech is not a practical investment anymore, its more of a "look at this I'm different" statement. I'll stick with my Marq, Timmy, and soon RSX that do both.

[matteusz]

I get what your saying, but in reality the new Spyders with thier improved regs and barrels are very very accurate, the difference in price for speed vs accuracy will be strictly in the paint. Spray and pray can use what ever, but accuracy needs premium paint to truly pull it off, and good paint is not an option at all fields. When it comes right down to it I would never buy another mag again just because for cheaper I can have a marker that is extreamly fast and just as accurate and consistant. If I want a Mech I'll shoot my Spyder. The high doller mech is not a practical investment anymore, its more of a "look at this I'm different" statement. I'll stick with my Marq, Timmy, and soon RSX that do both.

Enter the truly scary era of paintball where us old fat comparatively rich guys can't outspend the newb youngsters and create some sense of separation between experienced players and new ones so easily anymore. What I like about the difference in "accurate" vs. cheap "inaccurate" markers is the time it takes in the sport for people to get to them. You can almost immediately tell how long someone has been around by their gun.

You don't see kids with a mag cause they don't know what they are. You don't see them with a Marq timmy whatever cause they usually don't understand the difference between that and °°°°. Much less stick around to find out. Sure there are lots of exceptions but not enough.

I like the idea of paintball becoming a sport but lets face it this is Tom's old mountain deal. The mountain is now flat. Pretty much anybody that wants a "fast" gun of almost every type can get one. From my understanding (no I have not had much of a taste of formal speedball) when everyone is running around with fast guns there is only so much to the game.

Paintballers aren't like athletes. We don't move up to the big leagues through massive opposition and endless hours of practice and training. Grab about any agressive kid off the street. Hand him a 700$ setup and he can hold his own against almost everyone inside of two months of playing. At least that is the way it looks to me. Face it that is the big limitation to the growth of speedball. Rec players walk on get pounded by trigger happy knuckleheads and decide the game is painful and played by cheating idiots. There are no natural degrees of separation. No boundaries that can't be easily overcome with short periods of time and money.

It should be that accuracy by volume is taken out of the picture. Lower the rate of fire. Make the game one where if I am in better shape I can run you down and wear you out. Make it so that speedball is about the speed and agility of the players not the gun. Give me a reason to get back in shape. :wall:

Then keep selling the fun fast markers but as an entry to the sport. Let the new guys have that fun. Heck lets join them occasionally. But lets make it so the real fun is in getting good at playing a sport. Not going to the store and buying good. The old guys should be handing the newbs single trigger mechs or pumps or something and saying "watch those guys play. See how he moves. Watch him time what he does." That is skill you should be looking for. That is the name of making the game a sport.

/end senseless rant of truth.

[DevilMan]

Nope... Didn't read the entire thread....

What if you mix it up??? Like shoot with a Brass Eagle pocket hopper on top of a Tadao boarded ETek???

What does that make you???

:D

DM

[bryceeden]

Paintballers aren't like athletes. We don't move up to the big leagues through massive opposition and endless hours of practice and training. Grab about any agressive kid off the street. Hand him a 700$ setup and he can hold his own against almost everyone inside of two months of playing. At least that is the way it looks to me. Face it that is the big limitation to the growth of speedball. Rec players walk on get pounded by trigger happy knuckleheads and decide the game is painful and played by cheating idiots. There are no natural degrees of separation. No boundaries that can't be easily overcome with short periods of time and money.

It should be that accuracy by volume is taken out of the picture. Lower the rate of fire. Make the game one where if I am in better shape I can run you down and wear you out. Make it so that speedball is about the speed and agility of the players not the gun. Give me a reason to get back in shape. :wall:




Given that Addiction Tourneys are not the national average, but wait until this weekend(I'll get you the map today I got really tied up at work) and I think you'll find that speedball can actually be awsome and very good for newish players. You'll also see one or two real good example of people who have tried to get better by just buying a newer more expencive marker and proof that it doesn't work. The real problem is a lack of rule enforcement most places that hurt the speedball side of things. To play as a front player running fast is a very important ?skill?(I've got Pnuemonia this week and am terrified of not being able to run enough and I'm a mid player) Accuracy by volume only works against other major accuracy by volume people. The overall attidude of people in the sport has gone to crap, most places there is an abundance of jerks and far to few people who want to have fun and help others.

[Anjin3515]

Ill just throw this in....

I fired my first electro ever Sat in a game. I tried out an EGO ETEK2.
Ive never "walked a trigger" before ...but I was shooting VERY fast in semi, much , much faster then with my MAG. I have to believe it was the computer doing some of the work.....and while it was interesting in a way to be able to fire so quick......deep inside I knew it wasnt my skill that was doing it.
( I will say it was pretty darn accurate marker)

[bryceeden]

Ill just throw this in....

I fired my first electro ever Sat in a game. I tried out an EGO ETEK2.
Ive never "walked a trigger" before ...but I was shooting VERY fast in semi, much , much faster then with my MAG. I have to believe it was the computer doing some of the work.....and while it was interesting in a way to be able to fire so quick......deep inside I knew it wasnt my skill that was doing it.
( I will say it was pretty darn accurate marker)

Ya, ramping and stuff does kind of take the fun out of it. Electros in Semi are aton of fun, but then its still one pull=one shot.

[Anjin3515]

Ya, ramping and stuff does kind of take the fun out of it. Electros in Semi are aton of fun, but then its still one pull=one shot.

I believe it was in semi mode (game rules were for it to be) so I dont know if its the lightness/shortness of the trigger pull, or if it was in a different mode....but I was throwing paint out faster then I have ever done.

I swear you had to pull the trigger like a 1mm to have a full trigger pull.I thought if I looked at it wrong it was going to go off.

[B-Pow]

I believe it was in semi mode (game rules were for it to be) so I dont know if its the lightness/shortness of the trigger pull, or if it was in a different mode....but I was throwing paint out faster then I have ever done.

I swear you had to pull the trigger like a 1mm to have a full trigger pull.I thought if I looked at it wrong it was going to go off.

Depending on how the trigger is setup sometimes you can blow on it to make it go off.... I don't do that, but I could...

The trick with electros is knowing you can fling paint like a ho...and not doing it. Give a man a fast electro, a fast force feed hopper, decent air system and several pods on their back...then explain walking...what are they gunna do. Spray...because it's fun (I don't care what anyone else says, throwing that much paint is fun in itself). Training yourself to not give into that is difficult.

That is why I usually play at least half the day with the electro and half with the mech cocker. Usually more time is spent with the cocker as it forces me to learn how to play better.

[DevilMan]

Depending on how the trigger is setup sometimes you can blow on it to make it go off.... I don't do that, but I could...

The trick with electros is knowing you can fling paint like a ho...and not doing it. Give a man a fast electro, a fast force feed hopper, decent air system and several pods on their back...then explain walking...what are they gunna do. Spray...because it's fun (I don't care what anyone else says, throwing that much paint is fun in itself). Training yourself to not give into that is difficult.

That is why I usually play at least half the day with the electro and half with the mech cocker. Usually more time is spent with the cocker as it forces me to learn how to play better.

I disagree. Not everyone plays that way. Even if given the chance. To some it's no fun just spraying. Not on the field anyway. I like my victory to come in the form of a ball in the goggles. OH YEAH... And it's that 1 ball shot!!! Not 1 ball out of the 100 shot... but the one out of one shot.

Anyway, just wanted to state that not all people are out to spray to have a good time.

DM

[B-Pow]

I disagree. Not everyone plays that way. Even if given the chance. To some it's no fun just spraying. Not on the field anyway. I like my victory to come in the form of a ball in the goggles. OH YEAH... And it's that 1 ball shot!!! Not 1 ball out of the 100 shot... but the one out of one shot.

Anyway, just wanted to state that not all people are out to spray to have a good time.

DM

I didn't intend it to sound like everyone does that...but the temptation is great. It's like sticking someone in a sports car on the autobahn...they're probably not going to go only 45mph. Especially if don't normally drive a sports car.

I agree the joy of a one ball elimination is one of the best joys in the game...especially when you see the target look at the hit...look around confused and walk off the field. But being able to consistantly do that the player needs a lot of pratice with his setup (or be lucky), and with the way average regulars "upgrade" markers (all new markers or new ups for their current "gat") that level of mastery of their setup is usually lacking.:twocents:

[Desega]

You'll also see one or two real good example of people who have tried to get better by just buying a newer more expencive marker and proof that it doesn't work.

What? Not at our tourneys! Never! *cough*michael*cough*:D

[matteusz]

I didn't intend it to sound like everyone does that...but the temptation is great. It's like sticking someone in a sports car on the autobahn...they're probably not going to go only 45mph. Especially if don't normally drive a sports car.

I agree the joy of a one ball elimination is one of the best joys in the game...especially when you see the target look at the hit...look around confused and walk off the field. But being able to consistantly do that the player needs a lot of pratice with his setup (or be lucky), and with the way average regulars "upgrade" markers (all new markers or new ups for their current "gat") that level of mastery of their setup is usually lacking.:twocents:

That is the thing too though. You don't need mastery when shooting volume. Master would matter if you removed the option of volume. With the option to fling 100 balls downfield not so many players develop the skill.

[B-Pow]

That is the thing too though. You don't need mastery when shooting volume. Master would matter if you removed the option of volume. With the option to fling 100 balls downfield not so many players develop the skill.

I think everyone here would agree the level of skill required to do "accuracy by volume" is low to zero. The origional reason for this thread was to bring up an observation as to why so many newer players are spray and pray...because it can be precived as cheaper than getting quality gear, paint, and pratice.