ICD calls it quits due to "lack of growth in the paintball industry" Are we dieing?

[matteusz]

From their website:

"After 21 years in the paintball industry, ICD has made the decision to no longer produce paintball guns. This is due to ICD's growth in other industries and product lines and the lack of growth in the paintball industry. However, we will continue our commitment to our existing customers by offering warranty service, parts, and accessories for our markers. We are a strong, thriving company and this move reflects our continued quest for innovation and exploring new opportunities."

Yeah not good. Anyone know where to pick up their stuff cheap as it is being liquidated?

[Steelrat]

I'm pretty sure this is an old announcement.

Luckily, you can still buy a Luxe!

[B-Pow]

Luckily, you can still buy a Luxe!

Steelrat: next time you see a fire, go die in it.

[matteusz]

I wouldn't be surpirsed if it were an old announcement. All the same what does it mean about the industry that is the game we all love to play?

[bryceeden]

The Freestyle killed ICD, this was a coverup story(and about 2 years old)

[SithSteve]

No matter the business, if you don't make good products, you're gonna fail.

[Steelrat]

No matter the business, if you don't make good products, you're gonna fail.

Except for paintball, where even if you make good products, you can fail.

[CKY_Alliance]

Yea they've been done for awhile, but there are a couple of ICD people who are working on a new gun of valve something of that sort. Or they were like 6 months to a year ago.

[RogueFactor]

Yes, paintball has and is still seeing a sizable retraction. Depending on who you are, and the company you like...your opinions will differ as to the reasons why.

Alls I know is 2005 was the turning point in sales and participation. Is it just coincidence that 2005 is the year that the °°° debuted? Food for thought.

When a market shrinks, usually the strongest survive by gobbling up the market share of the failures. So the survivors think things are ok because on a micro level things are growing for them. On a macro scale, they arent. Eventually, if things dont turn around soon enough...it will shrink for them too. With the economic factors as of late, I dont see this happening soon.

This market will stabilize. Its a matter of how it will look when it does. It could be considerably smaller than it is right now if enough companies(fields, shops, etc) continue to go out of business.

[CKY_Alliance]

Yes, paintball has and is still seeing a sizable retraction. Depending on who you are, and the company you like...your opinions will differ as to the reasons why.

Alls I know is 2005 was the turning point in sales and participation. Is it just coincidence that 2005 is the year that the °°° debuted? Food for thought.

When a market shrinks, usually the strongest survive by gobbling up the market share of the failures. So the survivors think things are ok because on a micro level things are growing for them. On a macro scale, they arent. Eventually, if things dont turn around soon enough...it will shrink for them too. With the economic factors as of late, I dont see this happening soon.

This market will stabilize. Its a matter of how it will look when it does. It could be considerably smaller than it is right now if enough companies(fields, shops, etc) continue to go out of business.

As someone on the "inside" persay what do you think needs to change to correct the issue?

[RogueFactor]

As someone on the "inside" persay what do you think needs to change to correct the issue?

Thats the million dollar question, and the toughest to answer.

First, the big draw to paintball over the last few decades was the variety of product. Tons and tons of 'upstarts'. This is truly a cottage industry. Companies come and go, and have so since the beginning. But there was always a comraderie between the multitude of companies, even if it was on the surface only. Nowadays, the only reason companies work together is because they have to. Ive read statements from a few reps at major companies that despise paying a licensing fee to make electros. And those are the ones who stuck around, and they feel this way about the industry. This will take a very long time to change.

Second, the image of the sport. Just a few short years ago, anyone paying attention to the game knows its a cheaters sport. The one universal truth amongst most parents is that they use sport to teach their kids teamwork, sportsmanship, discipline, etc etc. This sport doesnt do that. And it needs to if it wants to attract kids of a younger age to build the foundation for its future.

Thirdly, the game is chaotic. To the layman, it doesnt make sense. Think about it, its just a game that people run around haphazardly and shoot each other. To a spectator, there is no rhyme or reason. Every tournament is looking for the holy grail format. To date, there hasnt been one. There is one that is 'slightly' better than another, depending on who you ask. This divides the players and spectators, both of which are needed to grow the sport. Regardless, neither format is the answer.

Lastly, the industry needs a core. This has been attempted many times, but will unlikely ever happen. Every companies own self-interest is more important than the future of the sport. Nobody looks long term. Companies are making decisions about the present of this sport, and not its future. Not surprising, considering historically that a company at best has 5 years on the top before the reign of power changes(go back historically and think about who the top company was in the 80's, 90's, etc).

There are lots and lots of little things that need to change too. But those things dont matter until the big things change. Also consider that the majority of players dont last in the sport more than 1 year. This must change too. I cant think of many sports that would last for very long(baseball, basketball, soccer, etc) where the players play for 1 year and then quit.

Thats just my :twocents:

[UThomas]

"As someone on the "inside" persay what do you think needs to change to correct the issue?"

There is no issue - this is a standard industry life cycle. We have moved into the mature phase instead of the growth phase. This is characterized by a shakeout of companies, and move toward cheaper products with less differentiation. It is typical in this phase that there are significant battles won and lost over IP issues. This scenario has played out countless times across many industries. So I don't think it's that big a deal.

I also have yet to see anything other than anecdotal stats that show the industry is shrinking. The warpig article from 6 months ago people reference was comparing two different sets of numbers based on two different methodologies.

[bryceeden]

As someone on the "inside" persay what do you think needs to change to correct the issue?

Well, I'm outside now but I'm going to make a post anyway. First off the Economy is the number one reason why the sport(and almost all recreational industrys) began shrinking in 2005, recreation is the first thing to go when the money isn't there for everything. So to fix it the economy needs to turn to the better, this won't happen since noone is addressing the problem just trying to patch it.

I've got to go, more to come in an edit later.

[TnDeathInc]

Well, I'm outside now but I'm going to make a post anyway. First off the Economy is the number one reason why the sport(and almost all recreational industrys) began shrinking in 2005, recreation is the first thing to go when the money isn't there for everything. So to fix it the economy needs to turn to the better, this won't happen since noone is addressing the problem just trying to patch it.

I've got to go, more to come in an edit later.

economy has little to do with the initial decline, ill stand firm and say the realease of the °°°° and low budget e-markers that allowed anyone to shoot to 15bps with no effort killed the sport. Every week i see rec play, Just as many people if not more are trying it. After they get ripped in to a few time they never return. So as far as addressing the problem sir, you need to rethink before you say the economy is the #1 reason. Paintball wasnt cheap in the mid to late 80s and it aint now. Its still a middle to upper middle class sport, sure some dabble in it, but i would say based on those toting 1200 markers in herds, its still that class of a game.

[mostpeople]

the i.o.n. is what you guys are referring to?

You think that gun specifically ruined the game?

[B-Pow]

the i.o.n. is what you guys are referring to?

You think that gun specifically ruined the game?

that marker definately contributed to the problem. "Back in the day" players would work their way up to a marker that could spray paint like that...and along the way their skills would greatly improve. Now any kid or first time goer can afford to have a paint sprayer that can throw more balls in the air than the average field allows (I have never seen a insured field without a 15bps cap...however not strictly enforced). I fail to see how this is good for the "hobby", it's like teaching someone how to ride a motorcycle on a 200hp+ 1000cc+ superbike...it's just asking for trouble.

[TnDeathInc]

that marker definately contributed to the problem. "Back in the day" players would work their way up to a marker that could spray paint like that...and along the way their skills would greatly improve. Now any kid or first time goer can afford to have a paint sprayer that can throw more balls in the air than the average field allows (I have never seen a insured field without a 15bps cap...however not strictly enforced). I fail to see how this is good for the "hobby", it's like teaching someone how to ride a motorcycle on a 200hp+ 1000cc+ superbike...it's just asking for trouble.

Couldnt have said it better


when referring to the i.o.n. in that context, it bred a whole lot of other cheaper 15 bps shooters that allowed the avg new player with little to no skill nor sportsmanship, to jump in at under 300 dollars and throw an assload of paint. I agree whole heartedly with the motorcycle analogy.Bushmaster the guns, had a good niche when the shoe box shockers were the craze, but they still werent cheap. Then if you could afford it the LED angels was the upper echelon.

In my mind, and how i came up the progression should be

pump->crappy semi, tippman prolite, automag/cocker, °°°°°°°, Angel ->insert this years 08 model for a number of companies. Now mind you i went through this stage not in a matter of a year or two but as technology changed. I still play mech cocker just to make sure i still keep my skills up. But if all you ever knew was push a microswitch trigger 3 times in one second and ramp to 15, well you missed out on a lot, and you are the reason new people to the sport dont stay.

[matteusz]

Um WGP just went out of production. I just talked to the guys at hybrid tech today (had an asa giving me fits). They said they are going to soft goods only till demand increases and things turn around. Hoping that will increase things for them. People have stopped selling older gear on ebay. You used to see auctions all the time from guys selling to upgrade. Guys that played for a summer and were selling as they started college etc. The volume of auctions on ebay for paintball has gone down (I have been checking at least 3-7 times a week for 2+ years). AKA said they weren't making enough money making markers so they laid down in a legal battle while giving the finger to the man (at least that is how I read the old threads). The list goes on and on and on. Everywhere I turn in the industry people are tightening their belts and pushing back from the table. New fields aren't replacing the old ones at any kind of reasonable pace. In fact the people I talk to locally and see chatting on the forums continually have something to say about things getting harder to get in a brick and mortar store. Anecdotal sure I am going on my experience in two states over the last 5 years. All the same it is looking grim all around.

Could it be that we are shrinking to the smallest game that is played in a sportsmanlike manner? No cheating and overshooting is just not done? It seems to me that people are wanting to be playing where they know they can have a good time. For me that is begining to be in the woods more than at an organized field. I think the overwhelming ratio of idiots with °°°° in rec ball are simply chasing the old players and new players away.

Econ 440 and Business Cycles 785 taken into account it looks like things are going down. More due to a lack of allure in the game itself than due to any other factor. I say the rate of fire needs to come down and the sportsman with skill need to be brought back. Otherwise we may not have a choice outside of outlaw woodsball (if we have one at all).

[Desega]

Hey I skipped the bulk of this thread, so sorry, but the spyder cup I attended this weekend showed an example of death in the industry. Although Kingman has made faster, lighter, and sleeker markers, after using a new marker and an old marker, I saw a big sacrifice of quality in their products. The new spyders did not preform anywhere near the hype, while old spyders have been know as the "old reliable" of the paintball world.

[matteusz]

Hey I skipped the bulk of this thread, so sorry, but the spyder cup I attended this weekend showed an example of death in the industry. Although Kingman has made faster, lighter, and sleeker markers, after using a new marker and an old marker, I saw a big sacrifice of quality in their products. The new spyders did not preform anywhere near the hype, while old spyders have been know as the "old reliable" of the paintball world.

Wait that was on topic. I couldn't agree more (but the old ones weren't really that faithful either). Junky compared to slightly reliable junky has me selling it all off.

[CKY_Alliance]

Hey I skipped the bulk of this thread, so sorry, but the spyder cup I attended this weekend showed an example of death in the industry. Although Kingman has made faster, lighter, and sleeker markers, after using a new marker and an old marker, I saw a big sacrifice of quality in their products. The new spyders did not preform anywhere near the hype, while old spyders have been know as the "old reliable" of the paintball world.

I've never known spyder to be referenced as "old reliable of the paintball world" That would be 98 customs.

[matteusz]

I've never known spyder to be referenced as "old reliable of the paintball world" That would be 98 customs.

spyder tipmann

cocker mag

mango guava

six of one half dozen of the other.

[CKY_Alliance]

I would never put Kingman and Tippman in the same category. There is no comparison. Tippmans are tanks, Kingman...not so much.

But to each his own I suppose.

[Desega]

I've never known spyder to be referenced as "old reliable of the paintball world" That would be 98 customs.

My old mech spyder has never crapped out on me, that's what I meant. Tippmanns are by far the tank of the paintball world, but spyders used to work much better.

[bryceeden]

Hey I skipped the bulk of this thread, so sorry, but the spyder cup I attended this weekend showed an example of death in the industry. Although Kingman has made faster, lighter, and sleeker markers, after using a new marker and an old marker, I saw a big sacrifice of quality in their products. The new spyders did not preform anywhere near the hype, while old spyders have been know as the "old reliable" of the paintball world.

You think that Spyders quality has dropped? Think about it

http://1.1.1.3/bmi/img239.imageshack.us/img239/3291/sta78293ow7.jpg

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4596/sta78286tq6.jpg

http://1.1.1.5/bmi/img220.imageshack.us/img220/6539/spa0306el8.jpg

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Spyder is still refining the VS platform(remember the RSX is made from left over VS bodys), when Tom demanded a high preformance marker Spyder just whipped it out without proper testing. The VS was a mistake. The normal Spyder platform is just getting better and better check out the new Electra(the only new E-Spyder no one had any problems with at the Spyder cup) Give them time and they'll get it right and higher performance. Atleast they didn't do it right and then screw it up more and more each year, it use to be if you purchased an Ego it'd last forever now not so much.

[Desega]

Ya but ego's died when Michael bought one.

[bryceeden]

Ya but ego's died when Michael bought one.

Its funny that after all the crap and the whole world cup ordeal and everything instead of fixing it PE started advertising it as a "Crash Frame" claiming it was an intentional saftly feature and started covering it under warentee(I guess the kid who thru his Ego away to set this whole thing off accomplished alittle more than we gave him credit for) But the new DMs do the same thing, and I've seen one picture of a °°°°°°° bent like that (but I question if that one wasn't done as an anti °° deal intentionally) longevity is no longer an industry standard, if the new ones wear out then people have to buy new ones.

[custar]

IMHO, the more healthy side of the sport is the scenario side. Companies that want to survive need to tap into that segment of the market. Even Bob Long is supposedly working on a scenario marker and may have it at OK D-Day.

custar

[Desega]

Even Bob Long is supposedly working on a scenario marker and may have it at OK D-Day.

Really? That would be interesting to see.

[RogueFactor]

A great thread, with some posts/opinions I think are spot on...bump

[Red_Baron526]

agreed^ bump