Instead of eyes...

[d4m4don3]

Any company ever put a pressure switch in the breach? Most high end guns use a force fed loader anyhow right? That positive feed could make things easier. Say if you had a halo...and it runs out of paint, you won't chop cause the balls in the feedneck have no pressure pushing them into the gun. I always get annoyed when I fail to reload my hopper and chop a ball.

[BigEvil]

Some of the older pre-05 angels had something like that called the "SENSI" It was a little nub that stuck up into the breech and worked just about the same as you described.

However, the Angel boards sucked big time, and adjusting that thing was a royal pain in the ***. Most of them never worked right. Nowadays with the more refined boards and controls it may work a little better if it was ever tried again.

The paint chopping issue you have, is typical of todays guns. All have some kind of cool sounding "EYE LOGIC" that supposed to make the guns shoot faster or work better or something. Many of them 'force' a shot, even when there is no ball detected by the eye system. Kinda defeats the purpose eh? I understand how the eyes see the bolt and all of that, but the gun should NOT fire when there is no ball in there.

Quite frankly, I prefer my lvl 10 over most ACE systems. The eyes are not as fool-proof as ignorant people would have you believe, and are much more of a pain to clean when you do break paint.

Sadly, many of the guns do break alot of paint with out their eyes on.

[d4m4don3]

Technologies advanced since 2004-05. Can't someone just put a pressure pad at the bottom? Hell touchpad technologies have evolved enough to register the slightest touch that I've had to dial down the sensitivity on end users laptops. Anyway to employ that tech might give an advantage for an electro marker. Oh well I don't think anyone will invest enough in the technology since eyes are so proliferate these days.:deadhorse1:

[punkncat]

Big Evil pretty much summed it up. Sensi was Angel's experiment into getting away from eyes. It failed miserably for a few years, even as they tried to improve it, lost sales, and eventually just put eyes in their markers like everyone else.

[bryceeden]

It could work, but I see more people going to systems like Bob Longs 4 eye set up, the logic and way it works is cool it is capable of shooting insanely fast but wont chop that last ball or two.(I've only had to clean my Marqs breach once and that was trying to shoot a .692 ball thru a .685 barrel) The pressure switch also sounds like it could be expensive and hard to do because you have to find a way to keep the bolt from damaging it.

[Zeroack]

I've got a old LCD angel that has neither eyes or sensi system and I've yet to chop a ball in it. I run a apache hopper and I shoot around 10-11bps when I really get rolling. I've toyed with the idea of getting eyes and a new board put in it but really why? I suppose if I was using a ramping board that would fire much faster I'd think more about it.

Zero

[Triangle]

What performance boost or increase would it give over eyes?
whats the motivations for BBeye users to swap, change, or retro fit a touchpad?

[wooky]

What performance boost or increase would it give over eyes?
whats the motivations for BBeye users to swap, change, or retro fit a touchpad?


I have wondered the same thing. I am curious to know what you fellas have to say.

[Mechanic79]

You just can't beat level X and FDA approved oil!

It takes the "boo hoo" out of chopping. (now breaking down the barrel is a different story)

Mags have feelings, other guns look, but just don't understand.

Although...
Eyes = Prevention and Level X = Insurnace. Is the best of both worlds.

[d4m4don3]

Well we can all agree that the forcefed hopper is the normal standard now for feeding paint to the latest and greatest semi auto super markers. So why not utilize the pressure being applied to some sort of sensing system? That constant pressure is the key, if we can get some sort of device to measure amount of force being applied to the stack it can tell the marker to fire at a certain treshold. Once the hopper is close to empty generally the last few balls in the feedneck lose pressure to the stack on the feedneck and we generally want to add more paint at that time because paint tends to get chopped when this occurs due to the fact that theres no force applied to force the ball down to the breach and it turns into a gravity hopper and depending on the eye logic of your name brand super gun you may chop a ball if the ball bounces in the breach. If its only set to fire at the pressure treshold then wouldn't that reduce the breaks in a gun? And even if you do break paint the gun won't care cause it doesn't use eyes.

Big E said that Angel tried it with a nubbin sort of like a bend sensor I gather? I wouldn't consider that as reliable then. If one can apply the touch screen/touch pad technologies that are out now to the breach of a marker I think that might be a better solution.

The marq compensates by using 2 sets of eyes which I think is cool, but I haven't tried it out yet, I haven't considered buying a bob long yet, I've never had the gumption to spend 1k on a marker alone.

[Mind'sEye]

LVL10 is effective against last ball bounce chops. A higher BIP can prevent it without slowing down ROF too much at a 15bps cap. The "last ball" is going to hit the touch pad at the bottom of the breech and bounce up. You're still going to need something to delay activation until the ball settles back down. As for the 4 eye system, I've seen this advertisement in the Bob Long Technologies store:
The 4 eye upgrade is the biggest advancement to the paintball marker since the inception of the 2 eye upgrade.

In short, The set of eyes at the top of the breech reads the ball drop rate and tells the bottom set of eyes when the ball will be in place and ready to be fired, rather than waiting for the bottom set of eyes to read a ball in place and then firing. This action speeds up the firing sequence dramatically.
It mentions the rate of fire increase by eliminating BIP, but doesn't say anything about preventing last ball chop. Does anyone have a link or maybe a video demo on 4 eye LBC prevention at higher ramping speeds?

[BlueDragonX]

Quite frankly, I prefer my lvl 10 over most ACE systems. The eyes are not as fool-proof as ignorant people would have you believe, and are much more of a pain to clean when you do break paint.

I second this. My E-Mag has always been break-free when even the more expensive high-end electros at our field have had problems chopping. I've had maybe three breaks since coming into possession of my Mag and they've all been due to the barrel.

[d4m4don3]

LVL10 is effective against last ball bounce chops. A higher BIP can prevent it without slowing down ROF too much at a 15bps cap. The "last ball" is going to hit the touch pad at the bottom of the breech and bounce up. You're still going to need something to delay activation until the ball settles back down. As for the 4 eye system, I've seen this advertisement in the Bob Long Technologies store:
If you have a pressure sensor, the last ball dropping wouldn't register if it doesn't go over the pressure treshold since theres not enough force registering on the pad, forces you to reload. At least thats what I would do.

[Triangle]

TL;DR


At the rate that hoppers are evolving, why have eyes in markers at all?

Seriously.

[tymcneer]

How about a marker that uses only air for ALL sensing, switching and firing operations?

Consider this sensor (http://www.clippard.com/store/display_details.asp?sku=2011-1) from Clippard...

It is a limit sensor that switches when the little nipple at the top is blocked... By say... a paintball? I don't have one, yet, but I plan to acquire a few of Clippard's "cool" parts to test out. They also have "amplifiers (http://www.clippard.com/store/display_details.asp?sku=2010)" which look like pilot actuated valves to me, with an exhaust port...

One of these could be used on the trigger and another to sense the ball...

Just a few meaningless thoughts...

Ty

[punkncat]

^^^^

Go on field with a small air leak, which is what that would be. See how long into the game you get to play with your tank slwoly leaking down.

[tymcneer]

I know that it is a small air leak, but the idea is to screw over our "friends" at Smart Parts...

Just a meaningless thought... And something I might just test for the heck of it...

Ty

[grEnAlEins]

COPS and SENSI (the latter has been mentioned) did something similar.

Here is some info on COPS:

http://www.angelowners.com/showthread.php?t=49177

[Neppo1345]

My understanding of what the OP was referring to was a digital sensor rather than the on/off reed used in the SENSI / COPS systems.

Instead of simply giving a 1 or 0 when it's activated it gives a voltage.

The board can then tell wether it's just a ball bouncing down and back up, or pressure from a ballstack.

Of course this would require more computing power than the typical board has now and could give erroneous readings due to movement.

[d4m4don3]

[QUOTE=Neppo1
Of course this would require more computing power than the typical board has now and could give erroneous readings due to movement.[/QUOTE]

Question is have any PB companies R&D divisions done this yet? Or is it too far off, I'm sure the erronious readings can be resolved with some logic applied to them.

[Maniac Mechanic]

ok let me ask this , What are the benifits of eyes in a mag ? My level X's just don't chop paint

[grEnAlEins]

ok let me ask this , What are the benifits of eyes in a mag ? My level X's just don't chop paint

1) If you install eyes it will look like there is a rave inside your breech.:happydance:
2) Level 7 bolts are more efficient that level 10 bolts (you can go back to level 7 and not worry about chops):thumbup:
3) ????
4) Profit

Really the cool lights emanating from the breech would be the primary factor:happydance::wthumpup:

[Neppo1345]

ok let me ask this , What are the benifits of eyes in a mag ? My level X's just don't chop paint

With the Level-10 the anti chop feature does not activate until after you have pulled the trigger.

Eyes work proactively instead of reactively by stopping the missed shot before any cycle starts, there is a very short delay before the next shot can be fired.

With the level 10 there is the time for the half cycle to be completed (up to the point where the ball is pinched), the bolt to reset, the ball to drop back into place, and then the next trigger pull.

Although the Level-10 is damn near perfect as a mechanical anti-chop, I feel that nothing beats the proactive eyes.

[PneuMagger]

Eyes and electronics transfer signals nearly instantaneously. Pneumatics can be quick... but nowhere near the speed of light. Plus eyes offer nondisruptive way of sensing a paintball.

Level 10 is nice for stopping chops actively, but eyes prevent chops in a more preventative fashion. Best solution would be to have both eyes and an antichop bolt.


or no bolt :ooo:

[BlueDragonX]

or no bolt :ooo:

i.e., ICE Epic

[grEnAlEins]

i.e., ICE Epic

or those blowguns and that bow-gun:smarty:

LOL... eyes on a blowgun...:rofl2:

[tymcneer]

I have to admit, the ability to "see" if there is a ball in the chamber is very handy... unfortunately, I use the level 10 on my SFL exclusively. The ACE works, but I'm not a fan of it. Then again, I've been known to run the SFL in Mechanical mode to conserve paint :)

Ty

[Mechanic79]

Eyes and electronics transfer signals nearly instantaneously. Pneumatics can be quick... but nowhere near the speed of light. Plus eyes offer nondisruptive way of sensing a paintball.

Level 10 is nice for stopping chops actively, but eyes prevent chops in a more preventative fashion. Best solution would be to have both eyes and an antichop bolt.


or no bolt :ooo:

When I can start shooting laser "paint" balls out of a paintball gun, then I would have need for eyes. :D I'm sure the new way of cheating will be having some sort of "black hole" attached to the player to absorb the light!

Otherwise level X does more and is more reliable than any eye system, in my opinion. Of course when I had the DevilMag I thought using level X with Eyes would be the best of both worlds. but at 15 bps, level X is just fine and you don't have to mess with eye software and extra battery drain. I ended up just leaving the eyes off and not worrying about them.

as Einstein said: "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."

[JAM]

I've used pretty much all of the systems out there over the years and they all had their own pluses and minuses. Eyes can be a pain to clean, but I had the SENSI system in my Angel Speed and that thing never worked right.

I really do(did) like the Lev10 systems as a working mechanical antichop seems like magic to me. ;)

The best cure for chops in my book is a fast reliable hopper.

[warbeak2099]

As others have said, eyes are far superior for their preventative ability. I'd rather have the increased efficiency and lack of tuning. That's why I switched my spydermag to lvl 7. Don't need lvl 10 with eyes and a fast hopper. I've got the gun set at 15bps and my Vlocity Jr will do 18 consistently.

[Spider]

In the time you program a processor for pressure measurement and filtering, you could program it for eye intensity measurement so it could tell the difference between a film from a leaking ball and a whole ball. Both would require a calibration pass on 'boot' up.

One piezo pressure pad in the bottom might be simpler than eyes in manufacturing, but it would have to be able to sense a single ball if you want your last shot. I don't think you can guarantee that the (unforced) ball will be sitting with it's full weight on the sensor either.
:thinking: