Paintball as we know it...on the downhill run. [Archive]

RogueFactor

11-26-2007, 06:01 PM

Everywhere I look, its undeniable. Things are not looking up.

First thing...I speak with those close to, and some who work for, the biggest companies in paintball. Sales are down.

Second thing...this industries largest paintball site(PBN) has nothing much going on. Unless you consider the announcement that "KEE Action Sports opens New Forums on PbNation LLC", exciting? Is this indicitive of things to come?

Third thing...the economy is arguably not doing well. People are spending less. For paintball, one of the most expensive sports to play, this doesnt bode well for the future.

Fourth thing...the direction the industry is going. Are cheap-o sub-$150 markers really where the 'high-end' companies want to go? Its not like we didnt have $150 markers for the last decade already. And since it could be argued that players shooting ramping markers has, at minimum, added to the decline in particpation...is this really where we want to go?

Fifth thing...there are plenty of manufacturers/shops/fields that have closed in the last 2 years. And nobody is stepping in to fill their shoes. That cant be a good sign.

Sixth thing...manufacturers and owners who never had a web presence are now attempting to 'connect with the customer'. Isnt this a little too late?

Add to the list if you like.

Papa_Smurf

11-26-2007, 06:18 PM

I still go play every weekend in the summer.

case of paint every two to three weeks, season pass, and about five hot dogs and three drinks per day, all of this purchased from the field.

There was a group of about twenty I was with. We weren't the only ones. It may just be a regional thing. But that was in the hills of western NC where the population is sparse.

grEnAlEins

11-26-2007, 06:27 PM

Well said.

The fun of that game is rare to find at fields nowadays. Rouge games are the way to go if looking to have fun with out all of the BS associated with the game today. As mentioned in a prior thread, there has been no real move forward technologically, no innovation. An 08 marker is no better than the 03 one is. Why should I buy a new marker? Why buy an A1 when my A4Fly is still top notch? Why buy an NXT when my SFT is the exact same marker, minus the break beam eyes (until my SFT gets surgery). You mentioned the cheap electro... I think that this has changed the game forever, for better and worse. I could see where this would cut into sales of midgrade and high-ends quite a bit. At the same time, it teaches kids that there is little difference betwixt a $150-300 marker and a $800+ marker, at least in the short term.

I think the biggest issue is the lack of longevity among players. Most of the kids who play today see it as a fashionable trend, not a life long (or at least long term) hobby. I think that because most players play for a season or two and then stop really hurts the sport more than anything.

etjoyride

11-26-2007, 07:04 PM

i'm in texas. I play at least bi-monthly (sometimes every weekend when i get a chance). As far as i can tell participation is up overall locally. Depending on where you're located the cold/snow/winter in general may be scaring people away from play this past month...

but maybe not.

michbich

11-26-2007, 07:10 PM

Like grEnAlEins said, the kids arround here buy a blowback marker, play for 1-2 summers and then get rid of it.

One undeniable reason is the race to build the cheapest "high end" marker possible. By doing that, they cut the other businesses that can't adjust there prices to compete against those markers.

But to be fair, company competition is not the only reason. The growth of paintball is like a growth of a population.

You have different types of phases:

"latence" phase: The begining of it's existance, barely any growth.
"exponential" phase: Growth at it's maximum.
"stationary" phase: As much growth as there is decline.
"decline" phase: The decline over takes the growth.

We are unfortunatly in the "stationary" phase...it's unavoidable, if there is a flooded market with cheap "high end" markers as toxic waste.

bryceeden

11-26-2007, 07:16 PM

Participation here is up alot, but nation wide its down. In all seriousness while the economy is a problem, I don't think its a really big one as paintball has traditionally been a mid to upper class hobby. I blame the Aggletts chasing away most new players. No new players means no growth which means less new marker sales which means less sales which leads to problems accross the board. Not to mention that the Aggletts usually don't stick around long after they realize they have never really had fun playing/get banned from good fields. Plus eventually age takes a toll on everyone so you naturally lose players that way. So you end up loosing players and not gaining any. It can be fixed but most players are too lazy and most field owners too afraid to loose the little buisness they get.

RogueFactor

11-26-2007, 07:22 PM

Its always interesting to see the disparity between the macro and micro view of things.

On a micro scale, everyone believes everything is fine. They see more players, therefore things must be getting bigger. On a macro scale, things are the opposite.

The micro view can be misleading. For example...

In a particular location, there are 2 fields. Both have 100 players every weekend. For whatever reason, field A closes down. 50 of their players quit(for whatever reason), while the other 50 players play at field B. Everyone at field B(micro) thinks things are great, because participation went from 100 to 150. When in fact, overall participation(macro) went down to 150 from 200.

The pie aint getting bigger fellas. If it were, sales wouldnt be going down as shops/fields/manufacturers close, theyd be going up exponentially. Sales are declining because demand is declining. Because participation is down.

Also consider...prices are going down in the paintball industry while the rest of the country is seeing inflation. The only reason for this is the manufacturers are cutting their margins in hopes of increasing volume. And that just isnt working. Eventually it will eat into their revenues, and they will have to eventually raise prices. Another bad thing for the sport of paintball that many believe is already too expensive.

sepplainer

11-26-2007, 07:24 PM

I have a 13 year old daughter who I will be taking next month. She never wanted to go before. I hope when she goes she has fun and gets into it.
Sadly of the 5 feilds around my area I only feel good about taking her for her first time out to 2 of them. Based on the people that play there and my tolerance for bull**** around my kid.
I think thats why paintball is suffering...if it even is.
I have 2 more who are about 2 years away from playing so my paintball expense could go way up if they all enjoy it.

MedicDVG

11-26-2007, 07:39 PM

This sport was fun when it was in the woods. It became something else entirely when we took the sport 'mainstream'. For me, there really has never been much of an appeal to the tourney scene, and I think the by-products of that side of the industry is the albatross around our neck. People get into paintball thinking that is the ONLY way to play paintball, and they get disillusioned quickly.

Put this game back in the woods with fair play, and make it fun again, and I think there will be a slow increase in players.

The other part of the decline is that there really aren't many opportunities for people to play at quality fields around the country. Most places HAVE to cater to the tourney player or they won't survive. The margins are just too tight for them to encourage a 500 ball a day shooter to come out every weekend. They want the uber ramping 2.5 cases a day shooters.

Also, paintball doesn't have longevity. You don't have much of a rec speedball crowd that comes week in or week out -- lets face it.. if you have played one airball field, you have pretty much played them all. ITS BORING after a while. The industry is trying to capture the loyal participant by boring them to death, now that's a buisness plan.

Lastly, paintball is expensive as hell. I have over $12,000 invested in paintball gear and thats without firing a shot (not many 12-18 year olds have that kind of economic power). Paint is a minimum of $45/case. It is hard to compete for shrinking discretionary dollars when other sports are significantly less expensive in both initial investment and recurring costs. Even golf, which has been called a 'rich man's' past time. Lets say I splurge on clubs, balls, shoes, clothes -- $1500 tops.. and a day on the links $40 to include cart, and a couple drinks afterwards. So... pay $40/ weekend or $140 weekend... not much of a choice these days.

bryceeden

11-26-2007, 07:57 PM

See, thats a big difference from my field to the rest of the country. heck, people can play in my tourneys for $60 a player and that includes entry, air, and a case of fairly good paint which for most beginners who are there just to have fun is plenty. Alot of my weekend players play on about 500-1000 balls and have a total bill of $30 or less for the day so here people can afford to play more. I keep it cheap, unfortunatly I must confess thats in large part due to the fact that I have to be cheap because they can drive 10-15min in any direction and play outlaw ball free. Like I've said befor the game here is back where it was years ago and should always be. Sure people use the new gear but they practice self control. I don't tolerate any crap and only have one agglett who sticks around, and everyone just ignors him. I sell enough stuff and have enough players that I make it fairly well. Most fields and stores can't do that, I got very very lucky to be in the situaltion that I'm in.

Zeroack

11-26-2007, 08:40 PM

Were heading into a election year. Economy in a slump. Paintball suffers. All recreational activities suffer. The large sporting goods company I work for has had ok earnings but not any where close to the projected one's we had hoped for.

I say it's not just paintball.

Zero

Cold Steel

11-26-2007, 09:43 PM

Don't you think some of this industry misfortune can be attributed to the industry itself? How many of these dying dealers and fields were opened by the local mom and pop organization to facilitate their own paintball hobby? Better yet, how many of these dying dealers and fields were opened up by NPS or another distributor under the two thousand dollar minimum order (couldn't include a gun) deal. Remember those ads in PB2X? "Come and rake in your share of the big bucks of being in the paintball business!" Too many of these fields and shops were less than legitimate businesses. (Heck, I'd bet a good many of us on these forums held a wholesale account with one of the big distributors at some time. I did!) I think the industry's growth is inflated due to such practices. The current contraction of the industry may just be a by-product of that inflated growth.
My feeling is that the industry is in a transitional cycle. Those businesses (locally and nationally) that operate under legitimate business practices, with a legitimate markup on their product and a profit margin that allows them to pay their bills and carry on, those businesses will come through this stronger than ever. The ones who are there so Junior can play for free, will go the way of the dodo.

CS

michbich

11-26-2007, 09:55 PM

I'm surprised no one has talked about the effects of the internet.

Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the impact caused by the online stores, ebay and forums?

RogueFactor

11-26-2007, 10:52 PM

This sport was fun when it was in the woods.
I had plenty of fun on the speedball field, before ramping. Remember, tournament style ball started in the woods.

But consider this...some of the same people that ruined speedball/airball/etc have now entered the 'woods' scene. How long before they infect it too with sponsorship money and the win at any cost attitude. When they do, youll realize it wasnt the woods itself that was fun, but the player that played in the woods.

See, thats a big difference from my field to the rest of the country.
Consider this question...if running the field was your only source of income, would you be able to support yourself and/or a family?

rudz

11-26-2007, 10:52 PM

rain or shine, come hurricane, come tornado, come war, come peace, our mags will always be here, and our army will never dissapear, for we are the few the proud, so hoo rah and mother**** the industry, together we ride till the end of time, keep your ollie langs and your hk, **** your shockers and your ions, you can have your supermodel pro players, you can whine, you can complain, you can wipe, you can cheat..but always, always we will succeed, ...because quality shoots straight

"This is my emag. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My emag is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it, as I must master my life. Without me my emag is useless. Without my emag , I am useless. I must fire my emag true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to shoot me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will. Before God I swear this creed. My emag and myself are defenders of my field We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviours of my life. So be it .. . until there is no enemy... but peace. Amen."

punkncat

11-27-2007, 03:57 AM

When you look at it, paintball markers should never have cost what they did in the first place. There was and continues to be a serious advantage being taken for "high" end equipments cost vs. charged price. As has been mentioned and the soap box I have been on many times, I think the consumer has figured out that new markers offer nothing over old ones that can be had at a fraction of the price of new. Low price markers have always sold well. You can ask any store owner anywhere what he sells more of, and you can bet its Tippys and clones. So why wouldn't these "high end" manufacturers try to latch on to that?

While there certainly seems to be a decline in tourney/airball, I defiantly do not see that any time I go to a scenario. Every "woods" game I go to is packed out with players, and have even in the last year seen people turned away from a full venue. Look at all the milsim gear that has become popular. With the shift back to woods, it would also be a notable decline in buisness at the local shop, or even with retailers. Most of the woods guys buy clothing and gear at the surplus store and don't change markers every few months. Instead they are upping what they have with the addition of tac gear, etc. Unlike what the industry had gotten used to with speedballers having to have new gear every few months to be "in". A lot of these same woodsballers have discovered that they can rent a CO2 tank from their local Sidney Lee for $28 a fill, charge a dollar a fill to all their friends and still make money...AND save a trip to the store.
On a side note, that "agg" attitude has made its way into the woods and its true what Rouge said. Its not the woodsball that was so nice, but the players of that time.

I feel pretty lucky in that a full day of play cost well less that what I am seeing here. I pay $80 on the up side if I get a full case and go to the most expensive field around. Generally less than $50. I suppose its the difference in real estate around the nation? dunno Even at a local scenario I usually only have to spend about $150 for reg. air and paint.

Anjin3515

11-27-2007, 04:39 AM

Gear is so expensive...and after I have what I want...I don't really need to get anymore...so for the paintball companies I am not a recurring source of revenue. The initial investment was a big expenditure enough.
Ive got my marker,camos,mask,gloves,tank,etc....unless something really outstanding comes along..I don't plan on getting much more gear for a while...just a few parts here or there, or things I have wanted for awhile and have already been saving for.

From a micro point of view the scenario games I have been to over the last year have been well attended...but I have no idea of the big picture, just the small part that I see.

I am working on a new logo for the field I play at. The owner has a field and a pro shop in another town. Talking to him, the shop itself loses money or at best breaks even. The rent,inventory etc makes the shop expensive to run. The field, which he has had for 17 years, makes him his money.Ill have to ask him how he sees business over all is doing compared to the past years....

Because paintball is a smaller sport, I would imagine it is more affected by the changes in general economy. If it comes to really hard times, I know that shelling out $100 to play will be very hard to justify.
I would also think that a sport like this has more ebb and flow in size. That it grows and shrinks on a shorter cycle then most sports. Perhaps we are in a down turn...but you never know what the future holds....

BigEvil

11-27-2007, 04:56 AM

I would love to see some numbers to back these accusations up, if for nothing more than to satisfy my curiosity whether or not they are even available.

bryceeden

11-27-2007, 05:07 AM

Consider this question...if running the field was your only source of income, would you be able to support yourself and/or a family?

You know, I probably could barly support myself. I would have to get rid of all my good employees and higher the usual kids who don't know what they're doing and will work for minimum wage. My services wouldn't be nearly as good as they are now. Some of that however is Vernal is a small small city and most specialty stores around here just barly make it if its the owners only source of income. Like I said right now Vernal's economy is WAY WAY up and they're opening six more pipelines which will really make it boom so there are alot of people with alot of disposable income which really helps my sales.

In reality as the world of EMS pays very little(I make less than high school kids working at Arbys) and the world of paintball has never been very profitable(sad but true) I do need both to maintain my desired quality of life.

Papa_Smurf

11-27-2007, 05:18 AM

bryceeden

11-27-2007, 05:19 AM

I'm surprised no one has talked about the effects of the internet.

Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the impact caused by the online stores, ebay and forums?

With the intoduction of MAP it has helped alot, but online still hurts brick and mortar stores quite a bit. Its better than it use to be though, actionvillage use to sell the Tippmann 98 for $1.50 over wholesale so by the time I got it shipped to me there was no way I could match that price, that really hurt small stores. So yes, it definatly hurts but not like it use too. Most of my profits come from paint and air I assume that is the same for most places, and most people seem to get paint and air locally instead of online.

MedicDVG

11-27-2007, 06:19 AM

How many brick and mortar stores also have an internet store? I think that is the wave of what is to come for most retail industries -- combining the approach.

bryceeden

11-27-2007, 06:43 AM

How many brick and mortar stores also have an internet store? I think that is the wave of what is to come for most retail industries -- combining the approach.

True. Selling in the proshop here is the first time I've done any online sales and I don't think I could handle a full blown online store. I think I'll stick to special orders and selling hard to find goods here as my only online venture.

punkncat

11-27-2007, 07:27 AM

grEnAlEins

11-27-2007, 08:42 AM

So maybe it's that people are looking for more quality parts, and places to play.

I would tend to think that this is true in many cases, but a good place can be extremely difficult to find, depending on your taste, the flavor of the game you like, and where you are/what the players around you like. After the field I worked at closed, I have had a hard time finding a field that is anything even close to how great it was. I know that many of the regulars--myself included--have not really found a new home field, because the one we were at was the best in the area. Too bad the land owner wanted to use his land for other purposes all of a sudden...:(

I guess what I am saying is you are dead right. All of us that were "displaced" by the field closing have tried to find another nice field, although we have been unsuccessful so far. People are looking for quality more and more, as many fields are now sub-par.

RogueFactor

11-27-2007, 09:20 AM

I would love to see some numbers to back these accusations up, if for nothing more than to satisfy my curiosity whether or not they are even available.You and everyone else. Wouldnt that be nice if privately held companies would provide their Profit&Loss statements!

Until they do, the best your going to get is the SGMA statistics(which you can buy if you really want 'some numbers'), K2's publicly disclosed numbers(http://ir.k2inc.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=101913&p=irol-newsArticle_Print&ID=971507&highlight=), and anecdotal evidence.

RogueFactor

11-27-2007, 09:31 AM

An interesting thought I had. Rogue claims that paintball is going down the tubes while constantly enlarging his parts inventory for MagSmith. IE more products
So maybe it's that people are looking for more quality parts, and places to play. In many cases being unable to find them, esp. when you consider that even many of the high end pieces found today are junk, that they are just giving up, or going back to the old tried and true.

Just a thought
I agree its an interesting thought, because it would be wrong.I dont know how you came to the conclusion that I am enlarging my parts inventory(was that just a guess?), because the opposite is true.

In 2007 I have placed fewer orders from all my vendors, and waited longer to place those orders than in years previous. My inventory has actually shrank, and the product line consolidated. So there are fewer products both in quantity, and variety.

TnDeathInc

11-27-2007, 09:34 AM

RogueFactor

11-27-2007, 09:59 AM

I can tell you scenario ball is the evolution of woods ball. The stores I go to cannot keep tippman, milsim spyders and flurry vests on the shelf.

In 3 years I seen a small area scenario go from 75 people to 600+ justa few weeks ago. And demographics are changing. I am seeing entire families playing, and tons of kids. Go to a scenario and see what people shoot- tippmans, spyders, tiberious pistols, mags and cockers. You'll see an agglett every now and then, but they generally don't have as much fun and ...

A perfect example of Micro vs. Macro.

One would believe from your statement that the companies you mentioned are doing well. I cant speak to Spyder or Flurry, but I have spoken to someone associated with Tippmann, who has said their sales numbers are down 15% for the year.

punkncat

11-27-2007, 10:37 AM

A perfect example of Micro vs. Macro.

One would believe from your statement that the companies you mentioned are doing well. I cant speak to Spyder or Flurry, but I have spoken to someone associated with Tippmann, who has said their sales numbers are down 15% for the year.

Well consider that Tippmann is essentially two (3?) companies now. BT, Tippmann, and isn't there some other family member in on the thing as well?
So IF you take that into consideration the fact that Tippmann is down only 15% is suprizing.

Oh and yes, I did guess. With all of the other aftermarket parts I assumed you still had available, and now the new line of goodies to be added....my bad.

bryceeden

11-27-2007, 11:55 AM

RogueFactor

11-27-2007, 01:40 PM

Well consider that Tippmann is essentially two (3?) companies now. BT, Tippmann, and isn't there some other family member in on the thing as well?
BT is NPS. The purpose of BT(which now standard for Battle Tested after Tippman sued and won), was to steal their market share. Like I said, the pie isnt getting bigger, everyone is just trying to take other companies pieces.

So IF you take that into consideration the fact that Tippmann is down only 15% is suprizing.
I guess its perspective(and whose pocketbook is losing the money:smarty:)

Considering that before the decline, this industry was seeing double digit growth. Some estimate in the neighborhood of 30-40% growth. To be -15% actually translates to 45-55% decline.

Is that number still surprising?:clap:

Spyder is about the same 15% down

I had heard rumor, but had nothing solid to confirm. Knowing that you have your sources at Kingman, this is good to know. That now makes 2 of the biggest companies in this industry are in negative growth. Not a good sign.

Ninjeff

11-27-2007, 01:52 PM

out of curiosity, are these figures derived from the "average" gross of the paintball industry over many years, or just derived from the past few years? As i understand it (i was out of the sport since 01, and just returned this year) paintball skyrocketed in the early part of this decade (ie: 01-06 lets say). so if its a downturn in profits from the big "boom" that happened a few years ago, i wouldnt say its all gloom and doom. If its a loss overall (taking the average of 20+ years into account) then we may be worried.

My opinion? I think that the lack of "customization" available in markers now-a-days has something to do with it. Not completely, but its a part. Look at the autococker for example, used to be in the late 90s early 2000s that you couldnt find two cockers that were alike....now the best you can hope for is a new anno, and a few odds and ends. I know for me, part of the fun is making my mag my OWN. And talking shop. Sitting around discussing all manners of unique things to buy. And thats with mags. Imagine how excited i am to build a custom cocker this year!
Anyway, i think that the cookie cutter mass production of markers that all look the same (and they do) keeps people from really feeling like they BUILT something.

Mind'sEye

11-27-2007, 03:06 PM

For anyone interested in player numbers, here's a link to Warpig's report on the SGMA 2006 paintball survey: http://www.warpig.com/paintball/articles/news/sgma07/

Ninjeff

11-27-2007, 03:38 PM

"For those concerned with the safety and future of the sport, the venue where the game is played is all important – a supervised well run field or “renegade” games on private land in which key safety elements such as chronographs are often lacking. A new question addressed this in the survey, and participants indicated that 56% of their games were on private property, while 37% were at commercial fields."

Well, that is interesting. Not at all the numbers i expected.:ooo:

CHRONOBREAK

11-27-2007, 03:49 PM

Everywhere I look, its undeniable. Things are not looking up.

agreed

First thing...I speak with those close to, and some who work for, the biggest companies in paintball. Sales are down.

agreed, and like you most companies are consolidating

Second thing...this industries largest paintball site(PBN) has nothing much going on. Unless you consider the announcement that "KEE Action Sports opens New Forums on PbNation LLC", exciting? Is this indicitive of things to come?

weve gone over this before, i hardly think pbn itself is responsible for news though it is a common place for news to be posted. We are at a state where there is little to improve on and new desighns and color schemes are all that is keeping players buying the new stuff. that or their current or old gear doesnt hold up.

Third thing...the economy is arguably not doing well. People are spending less. For paintball, one of the most expensive sports to play, this doesnt bode well for the future.

making cheaper entry "tournament equipment" isnt the answer, however our field has had a record breaking month(nov 07) as far as sales go

Fourth thing...the direction the industry is going. Are cheap-o sub-$150 markers really where the 'high-end' companies want to go? Its not like we didnt have $150 markers for the last decade already. And since it could be argued that players shooting ramping markers has, at minimum, added to the decline in particpation...is this really where we want to go?

these high end and electros require more technicaly enclined people that was ever previously required. no more simple o ring replacements for beginners.
It seems everyone has a gun these days but doesnt know basic maintence and how to adjust the velocity

Fifth thing...there are plenty of manufacturers/shops/fields that have closed in the last 2 years. And nobody is stepping in to fill their shoes. That cant be a good sign.

must be an area or facility thing, all the local fields seem to be doing steady and some better than others. i talk to alot of the local owners and managers so i know what everyone is doing biz wise

Sixth thing...manufacturers and owners who never had a web presence are now attempting to 'connect with the customer'. Isnt this a little too late?

some companies have done a great job of this such as AGD which has undoubtedly helped them survive. some fields also have a good relationship with their regular players which helps ensure a good customer base and gives an idea of what can be improved and would make things more enticing

Add to the list if you like.

alot Companies are making **** these days, pure and utter entry level crap. I know if i would have spent the $150-200 on my first gun and it diddnt work right and was nothing but a $ pit i would be less likely to play. everyone wants to stay up with the competition and keep the profits up but that requires cutting corners.

as well as entry level guns shooting faster bringing the total cost close to the same as before, the $ is just going into paint instead.

as well as the higher ROF can turn alot of newer players and those that dont want to get lit up off of the sport.

I have no doubt that alot of new or first time players that get bunkered or takea few close up shots at 260-280 no longer want to play.

BigEvil

11-27-2007, 03:55 PM

All this talk of pie.. hmmmmm pie... :smarty:

CHRONOBREAK

11-27-2007, 04:00 PM

SEVEN

Wal-mart is selling cheap o Oil based paint that not only stains gear,clothing,equipment, but is bad for the environment. The bright side is it is cheap to make and inexpensive

Players dont get why they should be expected to pay $50 + a case of basicly the same paint. They dont understand wal mart buys in much larger quantities than any single field ever could, wal mart does not have paintball facilities,fields,refs, etc to pay with their paint sales as well as insurance,overhead and maintenance and what not. wal marts and many other large retailers only vested interest is a profit margine that works, they have no vested interest in the sport.

Players need to wake up and be educated of this and buy things localy for the few $ more it cost. Even just buying a few small items once a year can make a big difference over all.

Anjin3515

11-27-2007, 05:25 PM

Interesting...

The new survey data shows a total of 5 million paintball players in the US (4.960 million to be more specific.) Of those players, 2.5 million people were considered the core of the paintball community, hitting the field 8 or more times per year. By percentage, this group grew from 2005 to 2006. In perspective, this means that more than half of the paintball community is made up of people playing more than once every other month, good news for the paintball industry, as the more frequent players are the ones more likely to invest in higher end equipment.

According to the 2007 survey, the larger number of players leaving made for a 14% drop in total paintball participants - a bitter pill for the industry to swallow if it is the beginning of a trend.

So what does this mean?
Less people are playing...but the people who are playing are playing more....am I reading that right?

Mechanic79

11-27-2007, 05:26 PM

paintball has hit or is close to its technologic peak.

Think of it in terms of a symphony orchestra. No new instruments have been added. but they play on.

all their is left to do is PLAY PLAY PLAY! ENJOY

Maniac Mechanic

11-27-2007, 05:33 PM

Considering that before the decline, this industry was seeing double digit growth. Some estimate in the neighborhood of 30-40% growth. To be -15% actually translates to 45-55% decline.

now this is something i've never understood ;I make a 35% profit ( should I use profit or sales) in 2006 . In 2007 I make a 20% profit , so now I say I lost 15% , but I still made a 20% profit

now you must realize I am just a mechanic not a economist but really ,the company is still in the black by a long shot , not in the red

I equate this to Ford saying that last year we made 450 million & this year we only made 300 million & saying that is a 15% loss ; yes the numbers are lower than last year but they still made money

RogueFactor

11-27-2007, 06:06 PM

now this is something i've never understood ;I make a 35% profit ( should I use profit or sales) in 2006 . In 2007 I make a 20% profit , so now I say I lost 15% , but I still made a 20% profit

now you must realize I am just a mechanic not a economist but really ,the company is still in the black by a long shot , not in the red

I equate this to Ford saying that last year we made 450 million & this year we only made 300 million & saying that is a 15% loss ; yes the numbers are lower than last year but they still made money

Look at it from this persective...last year you were earning X amount of dollars, and living within those means. This year is different...the cost of goods has risen(inflation), but your paycheck is actually smaller(15% smaller) Crazy thing is, your costs are higher, meaning your bills are higher. How you gonna pay those bills? You still made money, right?;)

Business pay allot of different costs that arent associated with an individual who earns a paycheck. There is a reason why profits alone are not the only indicator used to evaluate the health of a business. When business grow, they take on debt. If a business has more debt than 'profit', did they really make money?

Ninjeff

11-27-2007, 06:17 PM

And yet dye can find $100,000 to sponser a player with.....

Maniac Mechanic

11-27-2007, 06:35 PM

Business pay allot of different costs that arent associated with an individual who earns a paycheck. There is a reason why profits alone are not the only indicator used to evaluate the health of a business. When business grow, they take on debt.

If a business has more debt than 'profit', did they really make money?

if a business has more dept than profit should they be in bussiness ?
banking on "next years profits" is just gambling isn't it
(must exempt the federal government)
I'm in florida , and right now a lot of people & bussiness's are learning the hard way about speculation

RogueFactor

11-27-2007, 10:22 PM

if a business has more dept than profit should they be in bussiness ?

Do you think Wal-mart should be in business? If so, just know that the first few decades of their existence, they were in debt. Now look where they are. This is true of nearly EVERY business. They all borrow to finance their growth.

But, I will answer your question in 2 ways:

1) If a person has more debt than money, should they be allowed to continue spending? If so, a good percentage of new home buyers will need to return their homes to the bank. Their debt is greater than their profits.
2) A business that grows at 50% per year would have to make quadruple that that in profit just to cover next years production. If you know of a business making 200% profit, let me know---I want to invest in them.

banking on "next years profits" is just gambling isn't it
(must exempt the federal government)
I'm in florida , and right now a lot of people & bussiness's are learning the hard way about speculation
I can discuss the housing market with you all day. Sub-prime loans have little to do with retail/wholesale manufacturing. There is a vast difference.

But, to your point...all investment is a 'gamble'. Its just a matter of risk vs. reward.