Manufactured crap

[CHRONOBREAK]

So I am leary of posting this here and hope i dont get any grief from anyone in the biz for it as i did before.

otherwise i will henceforth be forced to post all actual opinions anonymously which i would hate to do, since i have always been honest about the gear i used and what is advertised as good gear.

previous examples tha ti have publickly spoken out about are

Pulse hoppers- we all know the issues with the horrible shells

Gen x goggles-did these things pass ASTM standards or testing, these are a lawsuit waiting to happen.

BT marker-these things are not what they are advertised to be.

Recently i spoke out about the BT markers, and made a post on nation, and AO i believe about troubleshooting them as they were becoming problematic.

well Ben is apparently a friend of the owner and the post was showed to him, then got ahold of the field owner and blah blah blah, i get chewed out.

to be honest I enjoy working at the field, love the sport but there is a few place i draw the line.

1 Selling paint that is ****, ive talked this issue out many times and have complained that i dont want to sell paint or clean up broken paint all day long when it isnt necesary and have people day ruined due to paint.

2. not being able to speak my opinion on gear.

If we have something that we bought,use, or even a player that comes and has problem with I like to feel free to speak about the euipment.

I feel if they make crap it should be stated and made aware before others have the same issues.

while ide rather not go into particular issues there are many things that just could have been improved or thought out better on these products but was likely done to keep the bottom line.

Sorry there isnt really a point, just me needing to vent about freedom of speech. I hate not feeling like i can tell other players or a community about a product without being shushed since someone is buddy buddy with the guy that owns the company etc.

[Triangle]

Sup Chronobreak, how's it goin?

[bryceeden]

There is a reason I refuse to sell any of the above. I only sell stuff that I would personally use. When a new product comes out I order one in to test befor I will start carrying it, that way I know if its a product I will put my reputation on or not. I made an exception once and got some Ions, I'm still trying to clear out the last few.

Also welcome.

[Dark Side]

I made an exception once and got some Ions, I'm still trying to clear out the last few.

Also welcome.

:wall:

[Ninjeff]

You seem like a cool guy to me.

Just tossing this out there though: Could it be HOW you speak up. Not really what you say, but how you say it?

Again, i dunno. Just putting it out there. Sometimes i have the same problem, and i have learned its all in HOW you say stuff. Im still working on it myself.

[MedicDVG]

Luckily here we are all even handed players/vendors with no agendas and will treat your observations with objectivity and professionalism....





---- and monkey's might fly out of my butt too. LOL..

Seriously, I have no problem discussing equipment if you have valid observations. I am so tired of the "Tippys suck, spyder's rule" noob fights on so many forums, that I get jaded with the whole thing across the board.

oh well..

What was the question again?

:smarty::wall:

[Army]

Butt monkey's suck! Lemers rule!

[Triangle]

Butt monkey's suck! Lemers rule!


DAVE.
HOW THE HELL ARE YOU?

[JAM]

Wow, this like an AO oldtimers reunion thread. ;)

Maybe I can dig up my old AO sig.

CB- as for the selling of crap, i agree, but the industry as a whole will keep selling things that we all keep buying. No way around it. I applaud your feelings about only selling things you're comfortable with, I wish more people would do this. But then you run the risk of people's biases and opinions getting in the way of product availability for the consumer.

J

[LuisV]

Same here fellas... it's tough to do honest recommendations as some people are extremely opinionated and don't want to hear anything else other than what they want to hear. I also hate the "this" vs "that" thread with no valid backing other than the "this" is the best because I said so type replies.

I've often made recommedations based on personal use and field experience, yet some people out there have that "Their friends are always right" type of attitude. Being a computer geek it's very amusing walking into stores and listening to what sales men are picthing to potential customers and to hear their replies to valid questions. I've often explained the differences in CPU types, Cache, Bus Speeds, Clocking, and when I explain that a "faster" PC will not help you surf the web faster than a slower PC I just love to see the salesmen expression and blank stare. Photography is another passion of mine and it's funny when I explain that that not all xMP cameras are not the same and when I try to explain that the main difference is in the size of the CCD and the amount of light it can capture I start to loose people and salesmen typically walk away.

It's not specific to any one sport, hobby or field... it's widespread within all industries and it's hard to break the molds of marketing and it's of it's hype. As long as discussions bring out valid points and people can speak with a point of view with some sort of validity I feel it's well worth speaking about...

[CHRONOBREAK]

I never put down on a product unles i can back it up with proof or reasons.

This thread isnt directed at one particular product though, it just seems everything made these days is crap.

consumers have spoken with their $ and they want cheap gear. the problem is each company is cutting cost and corners everywhere they can to keep the bottom line and compete with others.

the problem is the consumer is the one that pays the price in the end

[p8ntball72]

consumers have spoken with their $ and they want cheap gear. the problem is each company is cutting cost and corners everywhere they can to keep the bottom line and compete with others.


I don't think customers "have spoken", I think the industry is trying to generate disposable growth.

will there be a "high end" in 5 years, I think not.

When the "classic Timmy" first came out, a mag shooting friend of mine posed the question "will the timmy last you 10 years"...{I figured Yes because it was high end.} it didn't and is in pieces in a box.

I have had automags for over 10 years and the fact that the gun is quality made is what has helped keep me in the game.
Disposable players play with disposable guns, when quality guns are gone, so are the quality players.

[CHRONOBREAK]

I don't think customers "have spoken", I think the industry is trying to generate disposable growth.

will there be a "high end" in 5 years, I think not.

When the "classic Timmy" first came out, a mag shooting friend of mine posed the question "will the timmy last you 10 years"...{I figured Yes because it was high end.} it didn't and is in pieces in a box.

I have had automags for over 10 years and the fact that the gun is quality made is what has helped keep me in the game.
Disposable players play with disposable guns, when quality guns are gone, so are the quality players.

I agree pretty much however,

customers have undoubtedly spoken out. belive me if people werent buying these entry level and budjet markers they wouldnt be making more and more of them.

Same with paint, if people werent asking for and buying cheaper VO fill paint they wouldnt be manufacturing it.

the average consumer is ignorant(unkowledgeable about the product) as the example about computers and cameras is stated above and 100% true, ive tested that myself many times.

i use the sam reliability when someone says its a what? an automag, those are old. OLD yes but it still works, let me know how that electro is shooting in 10-15 years.

[p8ntball72]

Do you see established players ditching their mid to high level markers to buy these cheap guns?

[RogueFactor]

the problem is the consumer is the one that pays the price in the end

The consumer gets what they pay for. There are plenty of people that do their research. Aside from real estate, its buyer beware. Educate yourself, or prepare to pay the price.

There is a saying "Lo barato, sale caro". Its one of lifes truisms.

[CHRONOBREAK]

rogue, i agree

but what do you do when all you can buy is crap? for example sure you can get $50+ cases of paint that is great paint, but a field cannot survive off of that."

people want to spend $28 for a case of MB at wal mart and $10-20 for a field fee. That is great for them, but bad for the field Not to mention the problem with VO fill as stated.

basicly they are saving a few bucks but destroying the fields with the oil based paint(yes i have proof it was the VO fill)

Do you expect customers to research where and what is in their paint? i know i would like to think they do, but i know i never personaly gave it a thought before we had problems. I suspect others are the same. Infact we get alot of blank and confused looks when explaining the problems with VO paint.

i guess i am just naive.

[RogueFactor]

rogue, i agree

but what do you do when all you can buy is crap? for example sure you can get $50+ cases of paint that is great paint, but a field cannot survive off of that."

people want to spend $28 for a case of MB at wal mart and $10-20 for a field fee. That is great for them, but bad for the field Not to mention the problem with VO fill as stated.

basicly they are saving a few bucks but destroying the fields with the oil based paint(yes i have proof it was the VO fill)

You are right. And the customers dont care if the field can survive, or the local shop. But trust me, the manufacturers will. The customers will too, sadly when its too late. Shops and fields are the lifeblood of the industry. And with the state of things, when a shop/field closes nobody is stepping in to fill their shoes. Simply because the sport is no longer growing, so anybody with any business sense wouldnt even consider it.

There will always be high-end though. It just wont sell in volume, or to the masses. Thats pretty true of every market.

And, unfortunately, thats where the market is going. And its being driven in part by the manufacturers, and in part by customer demand. The customers DEMAND lower prices. The manufacturers are selling the thrill of shooting fast.

The sport used to be about skill and accuracy. Now its about volume and the 'thrill' of full automatic markers. The only way to shoot volume and get that thrill is with cheap paint if you want the player to keep coming back. Nobody cares anymore if the paint is good(or accurate). They just need it cheap to get that thrill.

Do you expect customers to research where and what is in their paint? i know i would like to think they do, but i know i never personaly gave it a thought before we had problems. I suspect others are the same. Infact we get alot of blank and confused looks when explaining the problems with VO paint.

Customers know who makes the good paint. And they dont want to pay those prices, or else EVERYONE would carry it and not a single dealer/shop could keep it in stock.

[Maniac Mechanic]

Chrono , i'm concerned about the paint , I play outlaw woodsball & don't want my woods trashed up with oil based paint , can you shoot me a brand name on that garbage so I can keep it out of my woods

[bryceeden]

When the "classic Timmy" first came out, a mag shooting friend of mine posed the question "will the timmy last you 10 years"...{I figured Yes because it was high end.} it didn't and is in pieces in a box.


It could have if properly maintained. Actually I could probably take that box of pieces and make it work again. Timmys are very high quality, they just take alittle(actually alot) more love than a mag.

Most highend stuff will last, but requires more maintenace than people are willing to do.

[CHRONOBREAK]

Chrono , i'm concerned about the paint , I play outlaw woodsball & don't want my woods trashed up with oil based paint , can you shoot me a brand name on that garbage so I can keep it out of my woods

Monsterball is the most familiar, however there are dozens of oil based paint

we are compiling a list and will have it posted on our home site

bushwackerspaintball.net

unfortunately pretty much anything that isnt seconds,or rainbow and cost less tan $30 a case is most likely oil based.

[bryceeden]

I've never seen Monster ball for less than $30 a case. But virtually all Walmart and Kmart paints are oil based. Most(not all) stuff made in Canada and the USA is safe.

Chronobreak on your site you have no Cryptic allowed, Cryptic is not oil based and doesn't stain or damage bunkers is there some other reason its not allowed? The Cryptic actually just recently got discontinued and Ink'd brought back so it doesn't matter, I am just currious.

[TnDeathInc]

Remember when the New coke came out about the same time the clear pepsi and coke came out. People raised hell that it tasted like **** and were going to to start drinking pepsi. Coke then came out immediately with coca cola classic, the same previous version of coke before "new coke came out"

I think that without feedback, companies can not institute change. then again other companies paintball excluded, do market tests and stresstests as well as market surveys before ever releasing a product (some time over a full year or so of testing)

Maybe they should think about that.

[CHRONOBREAK]

rogue, tell ya what

we had some of the most rubbery thick shelled small bore paint and it was great. it almost never broken on players, trees, in hoppers etc.

we never had any complaints and were selling more paint than ever.

now we have some thin shelled paint and itl break if you tape the hopper hard and all we get is grief, i mean i have NEVER had to sit and listen to a customer/s badmouth me, my equipment, field etc while trying my best to make their day enjoyable.

soon as the paint breaks too easy, is odd shaped,dimpled etc all hell breaks loose.

bryce, Cryptic, Spank, etc have a very thick shell that while not staining it does tend to stick around and is difficult to clean.

keep in mind while its not being shot thru our guns we do still have to clean it off our equipment.

and while im on the subject, jt rec sport stains pretty bad and is also oil based.

[bryceeden]

bryce, Cryptic, Spank, etc have a very thick shell that while not staining it does tend to stick around and is difficult to clean.

keep in mind while its not being shot thru our guns we do still have to clean it off our equipment.

and while im on the subject, jt rec sport stains pretty bad and is also oil based.

OK, that makes sence on the Cryptic(all ZAP paints are the same way) if you let the shell get wet and stick it is a mother to get off of stuff.(they do have a good fill though)

JT is Brass Eagle, I believe all of their paints are oil based.

[Triangle]

Speaking of paint, I remember we used to save Chronic 420 with the white fill, JUST in case we started seeing people play-on. We'd all have one pod filled with it, and MAN that white fill was thick. I have packs and gear in storage that are STILL stained with the stuff.

[CHRONOBREAK]

yeah it doesnt stain per say, but it leaves a residue that is nearly impossible to get rid of. might as well stain.

funny thing about the JT sport is its $10 more or so a case and is nothing but repackaged MB ....

[bryceeden]

Speaking of paint, I remember we used to save Chronic 420 with the white fill, JUST in case we started seeing people play-on. We'd all have one pod filled with it, and MAN that white fill was thick. I have packs and gear in storage that are STILL stained with the stuff.

White seems to be the worst color out there anymore for staining.

420 was bad for staining so was Voodoo I think thats why they were discontinued. But man I wish you could get paint that hard to wipe that didn't stain.

ZAP paint residue only shows up if the paint is let dry, but once it does it ain't coming out.

[GT]

I think the best thing for paintball would be a market shortfall. PB right now reminds me of the cycling industry 10 years ago, overly debit leveraged companies. All it takes is a few bad quarters before assets are sold for pennies on the dollar or their sold at public auction. :twocents: