Player participation...

[RogueFactor]

Ive been thinking, why is player participation down? Why are sales down for the industry?:confused:

Id like your opinions on this, but here are mine...

The industry decided, right or wrong, that the way to grow was to make cheap "high-end" markers. Without regard to the fact that these markers sling 15bps, making playing the game ever MORE expensive.

More kids were playing, true. But how many times could they play a 15bps game? At best, they make minimum wage. So, once every few months?

They traded 1 'old-guy' who could play any style they want as often as they want, for 3 kids who couldnt. Is there any sense in this line of thinking?:wall:

That one old guy would buy 3-6 markers a year, just to try something new. The kid, at minimum wage, isnt capable of this. So how many more markers did they really end up selling?:oneear:

And this doesnt even take into account the fun-factor at the field. I will save that for another thread.:clap:

[Practice Target]

Well, I think that it could also be a by product of a sluggish economy. I know that my paintball budget has shrunk.

A day of paintball can cost $100 these days given the price of paint, entry fee and all day air. Then factor in that gas is $3.50 a gallon if you have a decent drive.

I think this may be as big a factor if not bigger.

just my 2 cents

[RogueFactor]

Well, I think that it could also be a by product of a sluggish economy. I know that my paintball budget has shrunk.

A day of paintball can cost $100 these days given the price of paint, entry fee and all day air. Then factor in that gas is $3.50 a gallon if you have a decent drive.

I think this may be as big a factor if not bigger.

just my 2 cents

Ive heard that before. But adjusted for inflation, gas prices arent any more expensive now relatively speaking than they were 10, or even 20 years ago.

Its easy to use the economy as the reason why things are bad. Consider that paintball has had issues in growth since 2005. Gas prices werent $3.50 then.

[LinearGoose]

Im 17 so I guess im the kid they are marketing to. So I will tell my tell, better get a chair because this is going to be a long one.


History(

Past:
Well lets start out when I first started to play paintball. It was around 98'(I was eight years old at the time) when one day my older brother came home and told us about this new game he played with his friend. We where pretty excited about it and well later that week my other brother and I got Talons and my older brother got a Tigershark sinces he bought it. We played a couple of games around the house and we didnt even have googles. We played with some safty glasses my dad brought from work but boy was it fun. Well as time went on and my older bro getting married(which didnt help at all) and my other bro and I basicly stopped playing. I did however tell one of my cousins about it.

Later Later:

As time went on my cousin would keep asking me if I was still playing paintball and everytime I would tell him no because im broke and just a kid. One day though I was visiting my aunts, uncles, grandparents when we decided to go to a pawn shop. I was with my dad and some family member, All you really need to know is my cousin was there to help sway my dission to buy a 32 Degrees Rebel Extreme. To me it was a really nice looking marker and paying 50 bucks also helped. I could afford it because I saved up my pennys and sinces my cousin had been playing for a while he had friends who where selling off old gear so I picked up a mask, hopper, and tank for cheap. I was about 13 or so at the time. Well I got home and called up some of my friends and had a game set up for that weekend. There where some people I knew who where a bit more active in paintball than I was so basicly I got owned a bit. I played a couple of games that summer but nothing major.

Later:
Well the following year I convinced my other bro to play again and well we had a group of friends to play with as well. This time we played at my ranch. It was the summer and to my suprise we played all summer long. Every Sunday we would go play, and I lucked out because one of my friends grandmas owned a resturant and was throwing away her giant co2 tanks because she was switching to can drinks. So we had a fill station and everything. Considering we never really had any fast eletros or nothing but mech guns paint lasted longer. We kept doing that for the next 2 or 3 summers and well I upgraded to a Tippmann 98 and so did the rest of my friends. I never could see why I would buy an expensive gun sinces I never really cared to shoot fast or anything but later that would change.

Now-Present:
Well sinces I had to move to a bigger city paintball changed up a bit. I was pretty excited to see how it would be to play at a real field and not someones backyard or ranch. This was my introduction to speedball. The first time I played I sucked like everyone else but I guess you can say I got lucky because the first field I played at was a shop owner that I meet through my cousins friend. Really cool guy and I loved the field atmosphere. Sinces it was a new field everyone was nice and well there was only one field to play on. The most they had out there was like 20 or 30 people. So it was fun, everyone giving each other tips and it seemed like a group of friends instead of customers. I really enjoyed it.

Present:
Well as I time went on I remebered what my cousin who got me to buy the Rebel told me. Mags=God in paintball. Sinces he grow up in that Paintball Booming Era I decided to take a look and thus found AO. Bought my first MiniMag in like 2006 or so and havent looked back. I learned a bunch of things from reading on AO and from seeing things. You can ask anyone here, I was a bit excited about mags and well wanted to have them all. I went through an Emag wanting speed, zgripped mag wanting something different and so on. I guess you can say around the time before and sort of during the time I found mags I was just like every other newb. I wanted something fast, and cheap but Mags werent the answer. I did buy a DM3 which I traded for a g7 but really never played with time sinces it was to expensive. My mag was always there for me though and I mostly played with that sinces it was mech. Took me a while to learn that you dont have to spend a case or try to act like a pro to have fun.
)

Thoughts:

Figured Ill give you guys a history of how I started to maybe help explain why I think this way but anyways let me tell you why in my eys participation is down.

1)Most people I know are either thinking about 2 things: A)Girls B)Cars
Now most boy teens think about these things all the time and well paintball either gets cut from the system because it takes time and lots of money to be what they market to us. You know have to have the new thing, best gun, coolest gear, stupid stuff.

2)Most people I know go to school and live on there own.
College aint cheap and neither is living on your own, so again shooting a cases a day isnt cheap.

3)Lazyness/other prioritys.
To be honest most of the time most teens are worried about partys or we are just sitting infront of the tv gamming. I know I am guilty but I mean 8 bucks a month compaired to 40 or so a week. So again money is a issue.

Conclustion:
Ive learned these things from just watching but as well ive live through some of these situations. I now own a Phantom which love and can now afford to play every week but I still dont sinces I really havent had to time because of one of the top 3 reasons I listed is influecing my life. There is one thing though and its that knowledge really opened my eyes and as many have said you dont need to shoot a case to have fun. I dont know if maybe this helps Rogue but there it is through the eyes of a 17 year old that has lived and seen paintball through at least 7 years of his life.

[t0nnn]

Kids that come into paintball today don’t know any better than to buy an *** or any fast cheap or good electro gun that can shoot fast. Seriously, a few weeks ago There were little kids at my field saying they don’t play woods, they never do. All they play is speedball and guess what…they all had ions/egos pretty much and all they did is shoot a lot of paint….kids today get into paintball and are brought up into fast speedball, NOT woods…maybe their first time playing is with a tippmann in the woods, but after that it seems like it’s all speedball

When I started about 12 years ago we were all woods, I didn’t rely on my parents paycheck to buy my gear…me and my brother bought all of our own stuff (excluding Christmas when we would get an a**load of paint) loll …but other than that it was just good days of playing in the woods with cockers, mags, old angels and shoebox shockers .....thats about it…...and I miss those days

[BigEvil]

The paintball industry has been too preoccupied with bashing itself into oblivion with litigation and making cost-subsidized welt-o-matics. When the industry leaders who influence the direction of paintball actually take the time to influence' things, the results have been incredibly counter productive.

Instead of shoving $150 piece of crap ramping markers at players, the powers that be would have been better off trying to promote and better regulate the very fields were people play. If no one has noticed, there aren't very many quality playing fields these day.

New and casual will quickly loose interest in the game when they have to spend their hard earned money (or there parents) only to be disapointed with the results. Meaning - they didnt have enough of a good time to come back anytime soon.

[grEnAlEins]

The paintball industry has been too preoccupied with bashing itself into oblivion with litigation and making cost-subsidized welt-o-matics.

If no one has noticed, there aren't very many quality playing fields these day.

New and casual will quickly loose interest in the game when they have to spend their hard earned money (or there parents) only to be disapointed with the results. Meaning - they didnt have enough of a good time to come back anytime soon.
BINGO!! You put "HAWT IONZ!!" with ramp/FA into the hands of first time/new players and wonder why there is overshooting on rec day? :wall: I think I can explain that... I have seen that ruin the days of renters/other new players somewhat often. I used to ref (field closed though :( ) and I was always "that ref" that would grab kids guns and test for ramp if I thought I heard it. I pulled out more kids that way. I am also a yeller, so they got a verbal what-for after the game :clap:. I think that having newer and less responsible players ramping is a big mistake, but I am not reaping the profits...

At the field I worked at, we tried to keep everything clean and appealing. The field did business for 20 years and was probably the nicest field in the area. We were able to have old-school guys and new-school guys play together on woods, hyper, and SupAir fields without problems (usually). We had dudes in ghillie suits playing on a SupAir field :rofl2: and they loved it. We had kids with bright jerseys running around the woods, and they loved it. This is because we had a beautiful field and awesome staff. I have not seen a field like this one anywhere else. Looking at some of the other fields in the area, I wonder play there sometimes, at which point I remember the lack of option.

I think it is a crappy field experience that turns new players away. Getting overshot happens sometimes; but if it happens at a field that you do not like anyways, I think the detrimental effect is compounded. Add to that when you have a bad experience every game, and even when in the staging area... NOT GOOD.

At the field I worked at, we had a semi only rule. I think that is a good thing to have and ENFORCE! Although I have played in friendly ramping games, but it was with older, experienced, responsible players. I have never had such a rush, and never had more fun than that game. I don't think it is ramping that is the problem. I think it is idiots ramping. The cheating does not help either.

:cheers:

Nick

P.S. Sorry if I was all over the place/rambling too much or if I did not make sense. I just woke up though, so gimme a break :wthumpup:

[t0nnn]

your exactly right, there's people that now how to shoot an electro gun ramp or not....and there's people that don't know how to shoot them - ie. new kids that ramp because it's cool ...leading to stupid shooting and bonus balling.

[BigEvil]

If BigEvil were EVER to open up his own paintball field (god forbid), I have a few ideas about how to try to maintain sanity.

-I would allow players to use ANY marker they so choose.
-I would allow players to use them in ANY mode and at any ROF (Other than full-auto and as long as they are chrono'd to the set safety limits)
-I would then not allow ANY hopper or feeder to be used other than 12v Viewloaders. This would limit the ROF on the guns to only as fast as the hopper would feed it.

IMO, this would level the playing field for everyone. I wouldnt sell as much paint in the short term, but maybe in the long term I would have a bigger and more successful business.

I would also try like hell to make sure I have a well trained and motivated staff. Lack of good staffing if killing many fields.

[grEnAlEins]

-I would then not allow ANY hopper or feeder to be used other than 12v Viewloaders. This would limit the ROF on the guns to only as fast as the hopper would feed it.
:thatfunny: I LOL'd
Lack of good staffing if killing many fields.
Unfortunately this is very true:(

[Practice Target]

Ive heard that before. But adjusted for inflation, gas prices arent any more expensive now relatively speaking than they were 10, or even 20 years ago.

Its easy to use the economy as the reason why things are bad. Consider that paintball has had issues in growth since 2005. Gas prices werent $3.50 then.

True and houses weren't $500,000.00 either. Speaking as an adult with a son in thie sport, I have given an observation based on my situation. Houses have gone up in price 10x, well, my salary has not!

I don't despute that the things brought up in this thread have had a lot to do with it. The indusrty has sort of imploaded due to the law suits, in-fighting among the manufactures and the quality (or lack there of) of the new players. This along with the current cost are all contributing factors to the sudden drop off in participation.

IMO

[grEnAlEins]

:lol2:

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/8672/20071105tippmannrebate0ah5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Someone at Tippmann must have seen this thread...:thatfunny:

[Dark Side]

Kids that come into paintball today don’t know any better than to buy an *** or any fast cheap or good electro gun that can shoot fast. Seriously, a few weeks ago There were little kids at my field saying they don’t play woods, they never do. All they play is speedball and guess what…they all had ions/egos pretty much and all they did is shoot a lot of paint….kids today get into paintball and are brought up into fast speedball, NOT woods…maybe their first time playing is with a tippmann in the woods, but after that it seems like it’s all speedball

When I started about 12 years ago we were all woods, I didn’t rely on my parents paycheck to buy my gear…me and my brother bought all of our own stuff (excluding Christmas when we would get an a**load of paint) loll …but other than that it was just good days of playing in the woods with cockers, mags, old angels and shoebox shockers .....thats about it…...and I miss those days

:hail: QFT

All I see are Ions/Egos/dm7s on the Speed field (which are being used by the common 14 year old) and a hand full of much older people in the woods.

[bryceeden]

Its the attitude most people have. I found a way to get more people to play that works. Instead of taking the time to type it I'm just going to copy paste it from pbnation. It wasn't well recived there, but maybe with the higher IQ this group has it'll make more sence.

Here is the quote, its a responce to a thread on there so it'll be alittle out of context here.

First I saw the sport I loved afew years ago dieing, the very mindset had so dramatically changed that for a while I considered calling it quites because this was not the sport I loved. Afew years ago new players were treated great by everyone and everyone made sure they had a good time and answered any questions they had no matter what, last year most people lit them up, mocked them for not knowing much about the sport and were basically jerks. Cheating was once abhored and it took years for a player who got caught wiping to live down the bad image. Last year cheating was accepted as part of the game. This point I had a serious issue with as fair play has always been the only way to go. It use to be overshooting was rare, last year people bonusballed people intentionally because they thought it was funny. My solution was to change this. First off I made sure all my refs and staff treated new players like gold no matter what, and they got after any player who was picking on newbs in anyway other than shooting them in a normal game situation. Next I adopted a no tolerance polacy for cheating, instead of a warning or being out till the next game a player caught cheating went home. Now in my tournements I was a little more lax on that, I adopted really harsh penaltys for cheating and if a team got caught cheating three times in an event they were done for the season. Next for bonus balling I added severe penaltys for it in tourneys and if a player in rec ball did it obviously deliberately they went home. I'm not going to lie all this did loose me some players including afew regulars, but for the most part people were fine with it, but the great thing was most of my renters and first timers came back and came back and came back and are still coming back because they had a great time on thier first outing. The lack of cheating in my tourneys has been voiced far and wide and I have alot of teams who travel quite a ways to play in them for that very reason(apperantly I wasn't the only one who hated cheating) I also have my sponsored teams put on free paintball clinics, and invite beginning teams to practice with them and run drills with them once in a while, and basically try to befriend new players and teams.



Second I took a risk and increased my selection and started a price matching pollicy. This got me most of the online shoppers, and alot of them eventually stopped even asking for me to match prices. Now I will admit that this whole thing was only doable because of the increased number of players resulting from my first step.

Third I began activly seeking out work groups and schools for paintball events including going and setting up my speedball fields at local schools for various activitys/rewards/whatever and only charging the school the price of my normal rentals on the markers and the cost of paint they used. This is a giant pain the the rear but it gets new players and I don't do it much so its not too bad. I also advertise paintball as a great daydate for school dances which most people are very open to(Sadie Hawkins is one of my biggest days of the year)

Fourth the few teams I sponsor with kids who are in school I hook up with t-shirts and what not for them to wear at school which is actually great advertising and gets alot of people out to try it. I also make sure I'm there for school carrier days to talk about my job and along with it my store and the sport in general.

Fith. 90% of my store is geared to newer players, I do carry highend stuff, but I've been in alot of stores with 2 tippmanns, a spyder or two, and every $500+ marker imagineable. Mine is about the exact opposite.

Sith and finally I offer a tourney circuit with lower velocitys and mech only markers which is only open to kids 12 and under. I make sure my store and events and everything are 100% family friendly with penaltys for cursing and such. I also do not allow anything with half naked women or other sexually oriented logos, pics, or other onto my field or into my tourneys. This has resulted in alot of familys getting into paintball and has greatly increased my sales. It has also greatly increased the number of female players I get, which is not a very big market in the sport as a whole, which opens up a ton more new players.

I don't know if this would work everywhere, but it sure worked for me. Like I said my sales are the highest they've ever been in the 7 years I've been in buisness. Not many places can say that anymore.

[Anjin3515]

there are many reasons...it all gets very interconnected.

However, I will say that at $90 a case for field paint only...wow...that puts a crimp in how many times I am going to go to that field!

I also think that the high rate of fire can destroy a persons first time out. Who wants to go out and try something new only to get lit up like a x-mas tree. I took my nephew out not too long ago and he got pounced on by some high rate of fire. While he had fun...he didn't want to go back any time soon...he was covered in welts.

I wish companies would stop with the BPS BS and start trying to innovate. Give me some REAL improvements to a paintball marker not just new milling and more BPS.

[grEnAlEins]

:cheers: to bryceeden:hail:
That sounds like a field that I would enjoy playing at for sure:cool:
As for the the higher collective IQ here as opposed to there resulting in a positive response, I must wonder if you really thought this was "a maybe":p

[punkncat]

Bryc- Its a shame more fields aren't like that.

I played for years on a field that was exactly as you described. We were almost all very friendly, helpful, answered questions. There were few there with that elitist attitude. We didn't have to be asked to tone our game down when playing with new players IF we even had to. Much of the time there were divisions of play, new, experianced, mech, electro, etc.
With the market moving towards electronic guns its made it much more difficult to make these divisions. How can you put one noob with an electronic marker into a group shooting sear tripping clones? Its just not fair to anyone.

One of the problems come down to this. Many people like to shoot as fast as possible, but many less like to be on the recieving end of that. So you take example one above with his new "Eon" with the HPA tank and powered loader....he's having a great time mowing all the guys with their clone on co2 with a shaker. You can bet though that lots of the latter guys won't be looking forward to coming back. On top of that, with lower turnout at fields, you have a couple of very experianced guys out who through ignorance or lack of caring go on field like its the deciding game of a series and needlessly mow these new guys. That no fun for anyone in the long run. No competition for the experianced guys leads to boredom and its obvious why the other guys won't come back.

Couple that with a bad economy...I know....But realistically, when you are concerned about how the light bill is going to get paid, when $20 in fuel isn't even a half tank, when inflation continues and pay rates stay the same or in many cases get lower. Benfits are going away, no health care, retirement, vacation time....you see my point?
When faced with those realities paintball doesn't fit into that picture.

Lets also consider that the used marker market is the way to go when purchasing equipment. I rarely purchase new. The last new marker I got was a Mini, over a year ago. The previous new purchase, I was very disappointed with and turned it over for a horrible loss. When you consider, as an example. A used DM3 can be had in decent shape for about $200. It has every feature of a new marker that costs $500+ just a bit bigger and heavier. Think of all the decent markers that have been made in the past few years. Why buy new? I got a G7, a marker that sold new for $1200+ for $500 and it was barely a year and a half old. There is nothing revolutionary. No new feature that has made it worth paying the price.
In years past there were really things happening with markers to make it worth that extra bit of money to invest in the new edge. Wasn't it worth paying for a solenoid controlled electronic? Worth paying for a marker with eyes? Worth buying an HPA tank over co2? Worth getting that fast loader to keep up with this new technology?
Nothing has changed that is significant since 02 or 03. The decline is new sales can be directly attributed to that. Top that with the lack in quality since then. The DM6 had horrible chopping problems, so did the A1. There have been fit and finish problems in many of the high end markers as they rush to get them out before World Cup....

The industry has done itself in. Players and fields continue to make an environment that is unpleasant to the future players of the sport. Many fields cannot afford to keep things up, and we see a slow decay of the facilities. "We" are killing ourselves.

The bright point is that this leveling effect will hopefully someday return the sport to the grassroots thing that made it so good in the first place. I know that speaking for myself, the best game is the one in a buddies back yard, with people you know. People with honor and good sportsmanship.

/whew

[Zeroack]

I'd point at sluggish economy. I know that has kept me from a few games this summer.

Zero

[TnDeathInc]

to switch i generally pay around 150 for a 24 hour scenario game for myself.
add 100 for my wife
her 2 brothers 200
food for 3 days - 200
camping supplies 100


so about 750 is about right since i have to pick up her little brothers tab.

[Dark Side]

Bryc,
If I'm ever that way, I am damn sure coming to your field.:hail::hail: