Wow [Archive] - PB Legion

bryceeden

12-03-2007, 10:21 AM

I just looked over the Kee Action Internet/Electronic commerce agreement and the MAP policy agreement, Holy Schnikees! I wonder how many people just signed it and did not read it? Let me start by going over the Internet/Electronic agreement according to the agreement it says,

"all such product sales shall be made only through a website operated directly and exclusively by Dealer and not through any third party e-commerce service, third party operated website, or through any other internet or e-commerce means of selling KEE Action Sports’ products other than the Dealer operated website specifically authorized herein"

So does this mean you will not be able to sell Kee Action items on eBay or better yet you will NOT be able to BUY Kee action items off of eBay? Way to go Kee, cut off the largest retail site known to man.

). Dealer shall submit any Paintball Product description or other written marketing or promotion material related to the Paintball Products which Dealer intends on displaying on Dealer’s Web Site at least ten (10) business days prior to such display for KEE Action Sport’s approval which shall be granted in its sole discretion.

Does Kee really have the manpower and infastructure to handle this request? So for every item I want to list on a website I have to let them know 10 days in advance so I can get it okd before I list it? WOW!

Here's the funniest:
Reporting Obligations. Dealer represents that it has provided KEE Action Sports with a list of all other brands offered for sale on Dealer’s Web Site and shall provide KEE Action Sports with written disclosure of any additional brands it will offer on such web site after execution of this Agreement. Within five (5) business days after the end of each month, Dealer shall submit to KEE Action Sports a monthly report setting forth all internet/electronic commerce sales of the Paintball Products for such month, the location of each customer who has purchased Paintball Products on Dealer’s Web Site in such month, a list of Paintball Products then offered on Dealer’s Web Site, the approximate delay time between order placement and shipment of a Paintball Product, the return of any such Paintball Products and any other sales or marketing information related to the sale of the Paintball Products reasonably requested by KEE Action Sports.

Again, does kee have the manpower and infastucture to handle this request? And who will really take the time to do this?

On to the MAP policy.

So you made a typo, well I hope you have your checkbook ready, because the first violation will cost you $5000. Does KEE think they are selling the next gaming system; Kee-Box720. It sounds a little harsh.

Hey kids, do you like Empire products and you do not have a paintball store close to your house, so you buy off of eBay because of the security they provide. KEE just gave you kids a big go "F" yourself, because they say,

"Empire:
• No Empire products may be listed or sold on EBay
• Empire products may not be bundled with other products where the sum of the sale price is less than the combined list MAP total for the entire product offering.

I think KEE is trying to say, they are for the brick and mortar stores. Yea that is great and all, but I think they are cutting off their nose to spite the face. I am sure they have under estimated the money and therefore the power of Internet sales. They will be putting such restrictions and some crazy reporting requirments, that no one will even want to sell online. Hence KEE will feel it in their pocketbook especially when their flagship brand, Empire, will not get the looks from the Billions of people on eBay. Yea for the brick and mortar store, or is it. Basically I just see KEE losing marketshare and all the other major brands laughing all the way to the bank and thanking KEE for putting more money in their pocket. So you want to buy the new Magna loader on eBay or at the few stores online that actually will do all of what KEE wants in order to sell online, well you can't find it. Might as well get the VLocity loader, at least it is available everywhere.

KEE, MAP is not the answer. The answer is, stop giving dealers wholesale pricing on large orders. Give everyone the same price aka level the playing field.

In closing I would like to hear others' reactions and would like to let KEE know that we will not be signing such a crazy agreement (plus it has typos in it) and say we will gladly sell your products again after you finally see that this is not the answer. (well it is the answer if you do not want to make money)

I found this over on PBN. The poster guy is upset, but I must say I love this program!!! Granted I had to remove all my Kee stuff from this site's proshop section. But This will grately help remove the no cost basement seller that causes all of us legit stores so much grief. I'm not normally an online seller so I didn't bother to read Kee's online agreement. Now I'll have too just for the pure awsomeness of it.

BigEvil

12-03-2007, 11:06 AM

The question then becomes - how do they enforce it? Arent alot of places guilty of even violating MAP as it is already?

bryceeden

12-03-2007, 11:24 AM

The question then becomes - how do they enforce it? Arent alot of places guilty of even violating MAP as it is already?

Its not that its hard to enforce. In reality the penalty that is spelled out is if you violate it then you loose dealership privlages. The question is are they really willing to enforce it. Most companys won't enforce MAP because they don't want to loose a dealer. Hopefully Kee is willing to follow thru with thier threats.

tymcneer

12-03-2007, 01:00 PM

Ok, not to sound too stupid... MAP... what does the acronym stand for? Manufacturer's Assinine Policys?

Just curious...

Ty

warpig

12-03-2007, 01:00 PM

Ok, not to sound too stupid... MAP... what does the acronym stand for? Manufacturer's Assinine Policys?

Just curious...

Ty

Minimum Advertising Price if I'm not mistaken.

CHRONOBREAK

12-03-2007, 01:10 PM

I understand the anger against the having to keep more recorded info of sales, having descriptions pre apprived etc.

however i dont get why the anger toward the MAP stuff and the Empire total cost map rule.

for the bargain basement guys this only means more $, and the local b &m guys get to stay in buisness

seems like a win win for all.

my one complaint, Kee while seemingly enforces map, they dont do a good job of it. there online dealer order section doesnt have map and is often out of date

also i suggested that they include MAP prices for items orderd with the invoice, as that seems to be the easiest way to keep track if it for mer personaly.

Though i will say my kee dealer gladly emailed a list of MAP prices.

time will tell how much or well the actualy enforce it but my rep seemed gun ho on them "kicking *** and taking names"

bryceeden

12-03-2007, 01:40 PM

time will tell how much or well the actualy enforce it but my rep seemed gun ho on them "kicking *** and taking names"

I'm hoping so, they all seem pretty big on it. Thats why I removed all the Kee stuff I had listed in the Proshop section here.

On a seperate note I do wish I had been informed about the price drop on the Mini befor it happened, but I've got to give it to Kee they are the first company I've delt with that credited me the money back for the ones I still have in stock. Most places just let you take a hit on it.

tymcneer

12-04-2007, 07:28 AM

warpig... Thanks for the clarification. I was asleep in acronym class this year ;)

Ty

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 07:40 AM

I will post here what I posted there...

This is not what you want to hear, but I am exstatic about this. This is exactly what the sport needs to help stop the current slump.

Youre ecstatic? If thats true, Im sure youve already removed all internet forum sale threads of goods you mayve have posted(everywhere:P ). Because thats what they are requiring...

"all such product sales shall be made only through a website operated directly and exclusively by Dealer and not through any third party e-commerce service, third party operated website, or through any other internet or e-commerce means of selling KEE Action Sports’ products other than the Dealer operated website specifically authorized herein"

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 07:42 AM

Thats why I removed all the Kee stuff I had listed in the Proshop section here.

Why just Kee? If you really believe in the concept, you should have removed all your for-sale ads. Otherwise, wouldnt that be a bit hypocritical?

bryceeden

12-04-2007, 07:58 AM

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 08:28 AM

I'm not below MAP. All I would have to do to sell Kee stuff online is sign the form. I don't do enough online buisness to warent the hassel. I'm not against online sales, I'm against online below MAP sales.

My quote of the Kee rules has nothing to do with MAP, so thats a non-issue.

I quoted a specific portion of the Kee rules...and the way they are written is that an online dealer is ONLY allowed to sell online at your own dealer store. No eBay, no internet forums, nowhere else.

So, if you believe in that concept...then Im sure youll be removing all threads youve posted anywhere on the internet. And should anyone contact you from a forum, youll be telling them you cant sell online unless they go to your internet store, because you are ecstatic about this concept. But you dont have an internet store as I recall?...so you lose the sale. But thats ok, because this is a great concept, right?

bryceeden

12-04-2007, 08:33 AM

My quote of the Kee rules has nothing to do with MAP, so thats a non-issue.

I quoted a specific portion of the Kee rules...and the way they are written is that an online dealer is ONLY allowed to sell online at your own dealer store. No eBay, no internet forums, nowhere else.

So, if you believe in that concept...then Im sure youll be removing all threads youve posted anywhere on the internet. And should anyone contact you from a forum, youll be telling them you cant sell online unless they go to your internet store, because you are ecstatic about this concept. But you dont have an internet store as I recall?...so you lose the sale. But thats ok, because this is a great concept, right?

OK, you've got me in a corner. I don't care if dealers sell on forums as long as they follow the rules instead of trying to find a loophole. The concept I am exstatic about is making it harder for the zero investment basment seller guy who is screwing the industry by selling for nearly nothing over cost.

But in reallity if I was to have to take all my internet sales off the forums it would be OK. To date online all I have ever sold is one pair of Mini grips thats it period. So taking my stuff off the internet wouldn't hurt me one bit, and if all other manufacturers come out with programs like Kee's I will be happy to take all of my sales off of the Forums. The gain would be worth the...I'm not even sure if sacrifice is the right word as so far it hasn't really done me any good so loosing it wouldn't hurt at all.

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 09:12 AM

The concept I am exstatic about is making it harder for the zero investment basment seller guy who is screwing the industry by selling for nearly nothing over cost.

Im a staunch proponent of limiting the basement dealer. But the way Kee is going about it is NOT the right way.

For the legitimate online dealers who are doing it the right way...they are going to be unduly burdened by these additional requirements. And that isnt right.

You can answer this for me Bryce...are the B&M Kee dealers also required to report monthly sales? Are you also required to provide Kee with a list of the other brand you carry? Are you prepared to pay $2000+ if you make a MAP mistake(as an employee of yours has in the past).

Kee doesnt have a product that buyers clamor for. Everything is cookie-cutter these days...so there are options. The customer will find the cheapest price...and if thats on the internet from another mfr, thats what will happen. So, I can only hope, and see that this will bite them in the ***.

bryceeden

12-04-2007, 09:17 AM

You can answer this for me Bryce...are the B&M Kee dealers also required to report monthly sales? Are you also required to provide Kee with a list of the other brand you carry? Are you prepared to pay $2000+ if you make a MAP mistake(as an employee of yours has in the past).

No, we are not. And the financial penalty would suck, but I can't come up with a better way to eliminate the basment guy and if there is no penalty then there will be no change. Its a difficult problem to address and atleast they are trying. Do you have a better idea on how to fix the problem?

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 09:27 AM

No, we are not. And the financial penalty would suck, but I can't come up with a better way to eliminate the basment guy and if there is no penalty then there will be no change. Its a difficult problem to address and atleast they are trying. Do you have a better idea on how to fix the problem?

Well, if B&M stores arent required to report this...lets hope there is at least 1 online store willing to take legal action. How many people think that Wal-Mart online, or SportMart online are going to release their sales numbers to Kee?

Its not a difficult problem to address at all. The irony is that Gino(the guy you see as a paintball GOD) started this whole mess! He started as the guy who sold at rock bottom.

The simple answer is...reward the ones who do it right. Rather than giving away product to teams/tourneys/etc....give it to the dealers who are doing it right. Rather than spend money on all the LEGAL BS of contracts, spend it on the dealers. Support the GOOD network.

And Ive already said this before in the MAP post on PBN a month back. Make the requirements to become a new dealer those that only a legit store can meet. Healthy industries had this figured out at least as far back as the 1980's. Hire a sales rep force whose job it is to approve these dealers in their territory. It is so VERY simple. Especially when nearly every other industry has it figured out, its as easy as just asking.

BTW---CP has been doing this for years now. They havent been taking on any additional internet dealers. Only B&M. Wonder what took NPS/Kee so long to figure it out? Unless this is just another marketing ploy to make dealers think that "Kee is here for the dealer":rolleyes:

bryceeden

12-04-2007, 09:50 AM

Rogue we just can't talk about the industry without arguing can we? LOL

Well, if B&M stores arent required to report this...lets hope there is at least 1 online store willing to take legal action. How many people think that Wal-Mart online, or SportMart online are going to release their sales numbers to Kee?

In the future they may tell me I do have to, but right now the only new contract I was sent is for online sales.

Its not a difficult problem to address at all. The irony is that Gino(the guy you see as a paintball GOD) started this whole mess! He started as the guy who sold at rock bottom.
I also listed the Gardners as paintball Gods, it doesn't mean I support them or even like them. As we talked about on the phone the other day noone can blame Gino for keeping his store and doing what he did. Was it good for the sport? No. was it good for him? yes. By that same logic in away the person who started the problem(NPS) is now the person trying to fix it(KEE).

The simple answer is...reward the ones who do it right. Rather than giving away product to teams/tourneys/etc....give it to the dealers who are doing it right. Rather than spend money on all the LEGAL BS of contracts, spend it on the dealers. Support the GOOD network.
Most Distributers/Manufacturers are very good about supporting us and giving us free stuff and what not. The problem is how do you decide who is doing it right with out making them report what they are doing?

And Ive already said this before in the MAP post on PBN a month back. Make the requirements to become a new dealer those that only a legit store can meet. Healthy industries had this figured out at least as far back as the 1980's. Hire a sales rep force whose job it is to approve these dealers in their territory. It is so VERY simple. Especially when nearly every other industry has it figured out, its as easy as just asking.
What do you ask? What requirements? A buisness licence and tax id number? anyone can get that for like $50. What else can you really do? KEE sent a rep to my store to see what it was all about afew months back, but its unrealistic to send someone to everyplace that sells your product at this point. If they require a store front then most online people that can still get by now are gone as well and there will be even more of an uproar. Don't get me wrong, I would love a Trek style market, but right now it just doesn't exist in paintball.

BTW---CP has been doing this for years now. They havent been taking on any additional internet dealers. Only B&M. Wonder what took NPS/Kee so long to figure it out? Unless this is just another marketing ploy to make dealers think that "Kee is here for the dealer":rolleyes:

I don't think CP is, they have never asked me about it. They also don't require any more info then anyone else to open an account.

Most places I have accounts with have you set up as a dealer the same day you submit your application. I deal with just about everybody in the paintball industry and KEE is one of the best to work with. Heck, they just droped the price on the Mini alot. They contacted dealers to tell us and credit us the difference for the ones we still have in stock. They are here for the dealers more than most(which isn't saying much)

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 10:16 AM

I also listed the Gardners as paintball Gods, it doesn't mean I support them or even like them. As we talked about on the phone the other day noone can blame Gino for keeping his store and doing what he did. Was it good for the sport? No. was it good for him? yes.

Sure I can blame him. Thats exactly what we are all doing right now. Anyone who has an issue with the way things are right now are doing exactly that---blaming them for getting us here. And now, the GOOD internet dealer has to work harder for it. Thats bull****.

But, I dont understand...you know that he did this, and yet you applaud them for only doing something about it now? God, no wonder they did what they did. They knew they could screw everyone for years lining their own pockets, only to prop themselves up as heroes when they have NO CHOICE to fix things because they are so FUBAR'd.

By that same logic in away the person who started the problem(NPS) is now the person trying to fix it(KEE).
Precisely. Thats simultaneously the irony and the hypocrisy of it. Except that Im supposed to believe that "Kee is here for the dealer" because they are trying to fix what was intentionally FUBAR'd by them. And Im somehow supposed to applaud them for this? I think not.

Most Distributers/Manufacturers are very good about supporting us and giving us free stuff and what not. The problem is how do you decide who is doing it right with out making them report what they are doing?

Simple. Break MAP, get no bonuses. Thats how you reward the good ones, and not the bad. Make the bonuses so good, that every dealers wants them more than they want to advertise below MAP.

See, there is an incentive to advertise below MAP. Take that incentive away by replacing it with a bonus that outweighs the incentive, and wha-la...things change. Instead of spending money on legal ****, and enforcing ****, etc etc....put THAT money in the GOOD dealers pockets who arent breaking the rules. And dont give it to the ones that do. Its called Postive Reinforcement.

What do you ask? What requirements? A buisness licence and tax id number? anyone can get that for like $50. What else can you really do? KEE sent a rep to my store to see what it was all about afew months back, but its unrealistic to send someone to everyplace that sells your product at this point.

Man, you didnt read the post I wrote in the PBN thread.

Oakley, in the late 1980's required a business license, tax id, and picture of your store front. One of the requirements of that storefront was it had to have X' x X' feet of window space. Why you ask? Because they didnt want some bozo with a warehouse selling their ****. They wanted LEGIT sunglass retailers.
And after you sent in your application, the local rep would come to your BUSINESS location to verify and approve it.
So, its simple. You want an online PAINTBALL store...it must be run out of a commercial location. And a rep will be coming to your commercial BUSINESS location to verify it.
I cant believe that this concept is so damn hard to figure out.

I don't think CP is, they have never asked me about it. They also don't require any more info then anyone else to open an account.
Not true. The very first question CP asked when I called to inquire was..."Is this for B&M or internet". Answer: Internet. Response: Im sorry, we are not accepting any more internet dealers at this time. This isnt something I heard from someone else. It was told to me, by them.

And CP has 1 price list, with 1 price column. Dont you think there is a reason why you dont see many CP online dealers? Right, no incentive to advertise below MAP.

Most places I have accounts with have you set up as a dealer the same day you submit your application.
No kidding;), isnt that what Im saying should be changed? Dont you think if this industry wanted to be legit, it wouldnt just rubberstamp dealer applications? Every other industry verifies their dealers. Wonder why?

I deal with just about everybody in the paintball industry and KEE is one of the best to work with. Heck, they just droped the price on the Mini alot. They contacted dealers to tell us and credit us the difference for the ones we still have in stock. They are here for the dealers more than most(which isn't saying much)

Kee is the best to work with because they dropped their price? Is that all it takes to be the best nowadays? Well ****, they were doing that all the way back in the day...and thats what got us here in the first place.

The lesser of two evils huh? 'They are the best we got, so we might as well live with it and applaud them for doing something":confused:

They arent here for the dealers the most. I can name very few that EVER have been. Theyve always been about themselves. Which was, in truth, the reason for the price drop on the Mini's in the first place. They could have dropped that price a year ago, why didnt they if they were only 'here for the dealer'.

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 10:26 AM

Let me put it a different way, one in which I know youll be able to relate to. Im surprised you havent already seen the correlation between the way you run a tournament and the way the industry should be run by manufacturers.

Running a tournament series vs. Manufacturers Online stores network

Tournament Series
I want good players---I will not accept players who dont play within the guidelines I set, because I want the good players to return---I reward the best players with a 'Sportsmanship' award rather than those who won the tournament

Mfr. Online Network
I want good online stores---I will not accept online stores who dont do business within the MAP guidelines I set, because I want a healthy dealers network---I reward the best dealers with a "Sportsmanship" bonus rather than those who sell the most goods.

Start thinking of this industry in the same way youve geniously approached running your field and the tournaments series. It will make much more sense if you do.

bryceeden

12-04-2007, 10:35 AM

They knew they could screw everyone for years lining their own pockets, only to prop themselves up as heroes when they have NO CHOICE to fix things because they are so FUBAR'd.

Precisely. Thats simultaneously the irony and the hypocrisy of it. Except that Im supposed to believe that "Kee is here for the dealer" because they are trying to fix what was intentionally FUBAR'd by them. And Im somehow supposed to applaud them for this? I think not.

KEE started fixing things right off, KEE and NPS are different and have been since day one.

Simple. Break MAP, get no bonuses. Thats how you reward the good ones, and not the bad. Make the bonuses so good, that every dealers wants them more than they want to advertise below MAP.

See, there is an incentive to advertise below MAP. Take that incentive away by replacing it with a bonus that outweighs the incentive, and wha-la...things change. Instead of spending money on legal ****, and enforcing ****, etc etc....put THAT money in the GOOD dealers pockets who arent breaking the rules. And dont give it to the ones that do. Its called Postive Reinforcement.

That is a good idea, but would be hard to do. I would love to see it pulled off.

Man, you didnt read the post I wrote in the PBN thread.

Oakley, in the late 1980's required a business license, tax id, and picture of your store front. One of the requirements of that storefront was it had to have X' x X' feet of window space. Why you ask? Because they didnt want some bozo with a warehouse selling their ****. They wanted LEGIT sunglass retailers.
And after you sent in your application, the local rep would come to your BUSINESS location to verify and approve it.
So, its simple. You want an online PAINTBALL store...it must be run out of a commercial location. And a rep will be coming to your commercial BUSINESS location to verify it.
I cant believe that this concept is so damn hard to figure out.

OK, now that you bring it up I did read that. Basically the same thing Trek does, but Trek doesn't aloow any internet sales period. It would be nice to see that requirement, but unfortunatly I don't see it happening.

Not true. The very first question CP asked when I called to inquire was..."Is this for B&M or internet". Answer: Internet. Response: Im sorry, we are not accepting any more internet dealers at this time. This isnt something I heard from someone else. It was told to me, by them.

And CP has 1 price list, with 1 price column. Dont you think there is a reason why you dont see many CP online dealers? Right, no incentive to advertise below MAP.

See, that was your mistake, if you e-mail instead of call then noone asks those kind of questions;). But I do like the this is the price for everyone attidude. I hate tiers and such.

No kidding;), isnt that what Im saying should be changed? Dont you think if this industry wanted to be legit, it wouldnt just rubberstamp dealer applications? Every other industry verifies their dealers. Wonder why?

It would be nice, but most industrys I know of don't. Paintball isn't the only thing I've tried/looked into. Its just the one I stayed with.

Kee is the best to work with because they dropped their price? Is that all it takes to be the best nowadays? Well ****, they were doing that all the way back in the day...and thats what got us here in the first place.
Dropping the prices isn't the good part, its reimbersing us for what we still have in stock and paid the higher price for. Most places just say sucks to be you, I guess you'll be loosing some money for a minute. It was nice to see KEE do something different for our benafit.

The lesser of two evils huh? 'They are the best we got, so we might as well live with it and applaud them for doing something":confused:

They arent here for the dealers the most. I can name very few that EVER have been. Theyve always been about themselves. Which was, in truth, the reason for the price drop on the Mini's in the first place. They could have dropped that price a year ago, why didnt they if they were only 'here for the dealer'.

Don't get me wrong, they are here for themselves. But they realised helping us is in thier best intrest. The price drop on the Mini is a reaction to the lower priced markers out now selling instead. A Mini use to MAP at $399 now its $325, thats a huge hit to us if we have to eat the difference, but KEE decided to take the hit instead of requiring us too. I for one am very grateful for it.

bryceeden

12-04-2007, 10:38 AM

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 10:47 AM

KEE started fixing things right off, KEE and NPS are different and have been since day one.
Thats BS crap. Gino was the head guy from day 1. Nothing at that point changed except the name on the door and who was paying the bills.

That is a good idea, but would be hard to do. I would love to see it pulled off.
How hard is it? Someone breaks MAP, its documented. You dont get your bonus? How is that any harder than tracking someone down for breaking MAP and trying to get $2000 or more out of them?

See, that was your mistake, if you e-mail instead of call then noone asks those kind of questions;). But I do like the this is the price for everyone attidude. I hate tiers and such.
It wasnt a mistake. I also e-mailed. Thats the way it should be done.

It would be nice, but most industrys I know of don't. Paintball isn't the only thing I've tried/looked into. Its just the one I stayed with.
Please, do tell. I too have tried/looked into other industries. The ones that are profitable and everyone wants to be in dont rubberstamp dealer apps.

Dropping the prices isn't the good part, its reimbersing us for what we still have in stock and paid the higher price for.

So they are reimbursing you with your own money, and thats something to applaud them for? In a down market, theyd do that or lose even more dealers. So why should they be applauded for having gouged their dealers in the first place, and then giving them back money that they over-paid in the first place. Especially when the price drop is a result of the things not selling well in the first place?

Most places just say sucks to be you, I guess you'll be loosing some money for a minute. It was nice to see KEE do something different for our benafit.

Yep, they did, including NPS. And thats why we are here right now. But I still wont applaud them for giving back money that they overcharged in the first place.
I will be holding my applause when they have been doing that for 5+ years.

Don't get me wrong, they are here for themselves. But they realised helping us is in thier best intrest. The price drop on the Mini is a reaction to the lower priced markers out now selling instead. A Mini use to MAP at $399 now its $325, thats a huge hit to us if we have to eat the difference, but KEE decided to take the hit instead of requiring us too. I for one am very grateful for it.

Sounds like what ** did with the *** in 2006. If history has shown us anything, it didnt work.

If anyone should be grateful, its Kee. Now that dealers know they were padding their own pockets in the first place while theyve all been struggling would have ****ED me off. That coupled with these new req's, and it doesnt look too good for them.

Lets see how it all turns out for them.:twocents:

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 10:56 AM

...but I also think that sometimes your personal bias against certain companys make them the bad guy no matter what they do(I am guilty of this as well)....
I disagree. Ive come to my opinions about each and every company based on their actions. That doesnt change overnight either, with just one action---but a pattern of change. Ive yet to see that proven, and until I do---I will hold them to their history.

Im not a big fan of NPS/Kee because of their history, but the Mini is a nice marker for the price. If I were biased, Id hate the Mini and take every opportunity to trash-talk it. I dont, and in fact I own one. That wont change because I dont agree with their business tactics. Its a decent marker for the price.

Anjin3515

12-04-2007, 12:28 PM

Ok I am totally naive to all this....

What is to stop a dealer from turning to a "friend" and having them list stuff on E-bay? Or is Kee going to ask e-bay to not allow sales of its products?

Dealer shall submit to KEE Action Sports a monthly report setting forth all internet/electronic commerce sales of the Paintball Products for such month, the location of each customer who has purchased Paintball Products on Dealer’s Web Site in such month, a list of Paintball Products then offered on Dealer’s Web Site, the approximate delay time between order placement and shipment of a Paintball Product, the return of any such Paintball Products and any other sales or marketing information related to the sale of the Paintball Products reasonably requested by KEE Action Sports.

when they say Paintball Products...are they talking of only theirs or ALL products sold by the dealer? Cause it doesn't say "Kee Paintball Products"...just Paintball Products. If so...why does Kee deserve the info of competitors sales?
Aside from that...its a small thing but exactly how much info does "location of each customer " mean? My name? My address? Or more general like what city/state....cause if they want more info then that, its closing in on private info being dealt out.

Sorry if these uninformed questions....but I was curious...
Thanks

bryceeden

12-04-2007, 01:10 PM

And thus begins the never ending cycle
Thats BS crap. Gino was the head guy from day 1. Nothing at that point changed except the name on the door and who was paying the bills.

Gino isn't calling the shots anymore, a board is.

How hard is it? Someone breaks MAP, its documented. You dont get your bonus? How is that any harder than tracking someone down for breaking MAP and trying to get $2000 or more out of them?

I'll give you that and it may work better that way I don't know. Although the industry the way it is a $2000 bill is one heck of a threat that I'm sure noone wants to risk so I think it'll be fairly effective.

It wasnt a mistake. I also e-mailed. Thats the way it should be done.
Sorry, I should have posted a shifty or something after that. It was not a serious statement.

Please, do tell. I too have tried/looked into other industries. The ones that are profitable and everyone wants to be in dont rubberstamp dealer apps.

Well, off the top of my head is Scuba and Screenprinting/embroidery industrys

So they are reimbursing you with your own money, and thats something to applaud them for? In a down market, theyd do that or lose even more dealers. So why should they be applauded for having gouged their dealers in the first place, and then giving them back money that they over-paid in the first place. Especially when the price drop is a result of the things not selling well in the first place?
At this point I'm not sure what your talking about. Every place paintball and not drops the prices eventually, KEE is the first to make restutution to the dealers at that time, in this industry anyway. How is this gouging?
The Mini at $399 was one of the biggest sellers of the year and I don't think anyone felt overcharged at that. Frankly I don't understand the accusation here.

Yep, they did, including NPS. And thats why we are here right now. But I still wont applaud them for giving back money that they overcharged in the first place.
I will be holding my applause when they have been doing that for 5+ years.

NPS is not KEE, having delt with both ALOT trust me they are definatly two different things.

Sounds like what ** did with the *** in 2006. If history has shown us anything, it didnt work.

If anyone should be grateful, its Kee. Now that dealers know they were padding their own pockets in the first place while theyve all been struggling would have ****ED me off.

Of coarse they were making a profit on the Mini, thats the whole point of buisness. I made/make a good profit on the Mini why shouldn't they?

Rogue we have very different perspectives and very different customer bases. From my perspective your argument against KEE here makes no sence. Don't you make a profit on the Mag parts you make?

bryceeden

12-04-2007, 01:14 PM

Ok I am totally naive to all this....

when they say Paintball Products...are they talking of only theirs or ALL products sold by the dealer? Cause it doesn't say "Kee Paintball Products"...just Paintball Products. If so...why does Kee deserve the info of competitors sales?
Aside from that...its a small thing but exactly how much info does "location of each customer " mean? My name? My address? Or more general like what city/state....cause if they want more info then that, its closing in on private info being dealt out.

Sorry if these uninformed questions....but I was curious...
Thanks

For the Ebay thing I have no idea.

I am not an online dealer and don't know aton about this policy but it is my understanding that it is all products. This is one thing in the contract I dissagree with, but at the same time its really not a big deal or hard to do.

For the customer I think they are just after city/state but I'm not 100% sure.

Anjin3515

12-04-2007, 01:49 PM

For the Ebay thing I have no idea.

I am not an online dealer and don't know aton about this policy but it is my understanding that it is all products. This is one thing in the contract I dissagree with, but at the same time its really not a big deal or hard to do.

For the customer I think they are just after city/state but I'm not 100% sure.

Thanks for the info.I appreciate you answering my rather noobish questions.

If it is ALL products that seems to me a little shady. What right to they have to the sales figures of other companies? That just seems odd.....I mean it would be strange to me if Sony demanded Best Buy to tell them the sales of Microsoft stuff.....but maybe this is a common practice...I dont know???

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 01:55 PM

Gino isn't calling the shots anymore, a board is.

Right....anymore. Which means he was on board at Kee from day 1 they took over(Edit: JJ Brookshire too, the VP). For nearly a year, right? Didnt you say they were different from day 1? Makes you wonder what changed. Oh, and wouldnt it be a laugh if Gino bought Kee back sometime in the near future? :glare:

I'll give you that and it may work better that way I don't know. Although the industry the way it is a $2000 bill is one heck of a threat that I'm sure noone wants to risk so I think it'll be fairly effective.
A threat is only effective if they can enforce the penalty. If a dealer cant pay their bills, how does one expect to squeeze $2000 of blood from that turnip?

Like I said, Id rather see them BUILD the industry with bonuses, rather than tear down the industry with penalties. How well would your tournament series work if you tried to charge $2000 for someone caught cheating. Would it really have any teeth?

Well, off the top of my head is Scuba and Screenprinting/embroidery industrys

Interesting, Ive been a part of the screenprinting industry now on and off for nearly 18 years. And Ive come to 2 conclusions....1)The companies that are healthy dont rubberstamp dealer apps, and 2) Screenprint companies come and go much like paintball dealers do. The difference being, people will continue to buy screenprinted clothes year after year---so the market isnt shrinking and someone is always there to step into the shoes of a closed screenprint shop. When paintball was growing, they 2 business models were very similar. Not currently true in the paintball market.

Scuba, you have me on. Dont know nothing about that industry.

At this point I'm not sure what your talking about. Every place paintball and not drops the prices eventually, KEE is the first to make restutution to the dealers at that time, in this industry anyway. How is this gouging?
The Mini at $399 was one of the biggest sellers of the year and I don't think anyone felt overcharged at that. Frankly I don't understand the accusation here.

If by eventually, you mean when their competition dropped prices and they had to react...then yeah, I guess you are right. Its just an interesting 'coincidence' that they dropped their price at the same time as the introduction of competitors NEW markers. What would have happened if their competitors hadnt competed...yep, youd still be lining their pockets.

How is that gouging? Simple....they could have given that to you a year ago when things werent so bad. Now, they either give it to you or lose you as a dealer if they dont. They dont really have a choice, you see. So I dont applaud them for being put in a corner and choosing the only common sense course of action.

Itd be no different than when Apple gave rebates for Iphone purchasers who were gouged by the intro price.

NPS is not KEE, having delt with both ALOT trust me they are definatly two different things.
Then we are at an impass. I too have dealt in various ways with nearly every company in this 'sport'. Including them. So we will agree to disagree on this point.

Of coarse they were making a profit on the Mini, thats the whole point of buisness. I made/make a good profit on the Mini why shouldn't they?

Well, golly. Whats the point of this thread then if everyone is making good profit and there are no complaints? Whats the need to change MAP policies if everyone is making good profit? Hot damn, there is nothing to fix and life is good in the paintball world. Those internet basement dealers must not be as big of an issue as they are made out to be it seems.

Rogue we have very different perspectives and very different customer bases. From my perspective your argument against KEE here makes no sence. Don't you make a profit on the Mag parts you make?
Interetingly, our perspectives arent far off from each other. The only difference I see is who we listen to as those with the facts.
And neither are our customer bases. This sport is about entertainment. So I dont see how youd think your customer base would be different than mine. Unless youre saying mine dont want to be entertained, and yours do(or vice versa). I have had customers of all kinds--- Dealers, recballers, tourneyballers, and fields. In nearly every aspect of this game. As both B&M and internet, the weekend private group as well.

What does making a profit and putting undue burdens on only one type of dealer have to do with each other? This topic isnt about making profit, all business people do that. And nobody argues that that shouldnt happen. Since you said above you are already making good profit, this whole topic is really pointless though isnt it?.

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 02:02 PM

but at the same time its really not a big deal or hard to do.
I guess that depends on the size of volume of goods one is moving. And if it is being done full time or part time.

There is a reason why the IRS only asks a company to do inventory once a year. Its a burden.

What a dealers sells, and who its sold to is none of nobodys business. Especially a manufacturer who is competing against another companys products being sold.

This is the classic Big Brother & privacy issue. Privately held companies are under no obligation to release these things. Not even the government can require these things unless there is some sort of wrong-doing and an audit.

bryceeden

12-04-2007, 03:33 PM

Right....anymore. Which means he was on board at Kee from day 1 they took over(Edit: JJ Brookshire too, the VP). For nearly a year, right? Didnt you say they were different from day 1? Makes you wonder what changed. Oh, and wouldnt it be a laugh if Gino bought Kee back sometime in the near future? :glare: I don't think he was ever in charge at KEE, he probably had more power at first

A threat is only effective if they can enforce the penalty. If a dealer cant pay their bills, how does one expect to squeeze $2000 of blood from that turnip?

Like I said, Id rather see them BUILD the industry with bonuses, rather than tear down the industry with penalties. How well would your tournament series work if you tried to charge $2000 for someone caught cheating. Would it really have any teeth? Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. But I prefer this to inaction.

Interesting, Ive been a part of the screenprinting industry now on and off for nearly 18 years. And Ive come to 2 conclusions....1)The companies that are healthy dont rubberstamp dealer apps, and 2) Screenprint companies come and go much like paintball dealers do. The difference being, people will continue to buy screenprinted clothes year after year---so the market isnt shrinking and someone is always there to step into the shoes of a closed screenprint shop. When paintball was growing, they 2 business models were very similar. Not currently true in the paintball market.

Scuba, you have me on. Dont know nothing about that industry.
I got out of screen printing awhile back. Ask Zero for a good example of why(I wasn't particulary good at it) But the few people I got stuff from were just as easy to set up accounts with as paintball companys.

If by eventually, you mean when their competition dropped prices and they had to react...then yeah, I guess you are right. Its just an interesting 'coincidence' that they dropped their price at the same time as the introduction of competitors NEW markers. What would have happened if their competitors hadnt competed...yep, youd still be lining their pockets.

How is that gouging? Simple....they could have given that to you a year ago when things werent so bad. Now, they either give it to you or lose you as a dealer if they dont. They dont really have a choice, you see. So I dont applaud them for being put in a corner and choosing the only common sense course of action.

Itd be no different than when Apple gave rebates for Iphone purchasers who were gouged by the intro price.
OK, now I get it. Yes, they could have given players the lower price a year ago but for me my margins didn't change much so to me it doesn't matter. And I don't know of any players who didn't fee that thier $400 investment was worth it.

Then we are at an impass. I too have dealt in various ways with nearly every company in this 'sport'. Including them. So we will agree to disagree on this point.

It looks that way

Well, golly. Whats the point of this thread then if everyone is making good profit and there are no complaints? Whats the need to change MAP policies if everyone is making good profit? Hot damn, there is nothing to fix and life is good in the paintball world. Those internet basement dealers must not be as big of an issue as they are made out to be it seems.
Not everyone was making good profits, but that doesn't mean manufacturers shouldn't make money on thier products.

Interetingly, our perspectives arent far off from each other. The only difference I see is who we listen to as those with the facts.
And neither are our customer bases. This sport is about entertainment. So I dont see how youd think your customer base would be different than mine. Unless youre saying mine dont want to be entertained, and yours do(or vice versa). I have had customers of all kinds--- Dealers, recballers, tourneyballers, and fields. In nearly every aspect of this game. As both B&M and internet, the weekend private group as well. I think for the most part you deal with a more mature group of customers than I do. But I was actually refering to you as a manufacturer have a different perspective than I do as I can't make anything myself.

What does making a profit and putting undue burdens on only one type of dealer have to do with each other? This topic isnt about making profit, all business people do that. And nobody argues that that shouldnt happen. Since you said above you are already making good profit, this whole topic is really pointless though isnt it?.

Kind of seems that way now. But I still hope it helps kill the basement PBN below MAP seller guy off because I really dislike him.

sepplainer

12-04-2007, 03:34 PM

You would only provide that info if KEE requests it.

If you owned a paintball shop and had 5 Proto Rails on the wall and 5 Mini's you lost lots of money this week. Sure the company's will try and help you out but The Proto Rail is now selling for the same price as the "new" Proto gun. You gotta ask WTF is up with that. Besides the fact I am sure some shops learned of the MAP reduction on PBN. Which can't make them feel very ****ing happy. So if KEE stops some guy from back dooring product on the net and hurting the shops in my area I say good for them.
At this point if I owned a shop, which I don't, I would sell Tippmans and Spyders.

bryceeden

12-04-2007, 03:39 PM

I guess that depends on the size of volume of goods one is moving. And if it is being done full time or part time.

There is a reason why the IRS only asks a company to do inventory once a year. Its a burden.

All I would have to do is open a report on my computer and hit print. I assume thats the same for most people.

What a dealers sells, and who its sold to is none of nobodys business. Especially a manufacturer who is competing against another companys products being sold.

This is the classic Big Brother & privacy issue. Privately held companies are under no obligation to release these things. Not even the government can require these things unless there is some sort of wrong-doing and an audit.

I will give you that one. They shouldn't care what I have from other companys. The only reason I see for that is so they can try to talk me into carrying thier product instead more effectively, this still won't work.

bryceeden

12-04-2007, 03:41 PM

I would sell Tippmans and Spyders.

Truthfully thats about all you really need to stay open. Everything else is just an occasional bonus as it usually has a higher margin.

bryceeden

12-04-2007, 03:49 PM

If you owned a paintball shop and had 5 Proto Rails on the wall and 5 Mini's you lost lots of money this week. Sure the company's will try and help you out

Thats kind of my point with Rogue. KEE did help us out and actually made it 100% right in my opinion, when ** droped the price on the ******** all of us with them instock just got screwed. I don't carry the rail so I don't know if Dye is making it right or not, but if industry history holds true they are not.

Also does anyone else have a problem with the edit button not working sometimes or isit just my internet connection?

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 03:57 PM

I don't think he was ever in charge at KEE, he probably had more power at first

Nov 17th, 2006... http://www.68caliber.com/news/industry/story042056.php

"The senior executive team reporting to Mr. Dombrowski will be Gino Postorivo, founder of NPS, who will be the President of the new company;"

He left ~July 6th. So that was 8 months?

bryceeden

12-04-2007, 03:59 PM

Nov 17th, 2006... http://www.68caliber.com/news/industry/story042056.php

"The senior executive team reporting to Mr. Dombrowski will be Gino Postorivo, founder of NPS, who will be the President of the new company;"

He left ~July 6th. So that was 8 months?

I stand corrected, my mistake.

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 04:01 PM

Thats kind of my point with Rogue. KEE did help us out and actually made it 100% right in my opinion, when ** droped the price on the ******** all of us with them instock just got screwed. I don't carry the rail so I don't know if Dye is making it right or not, but if industry history holds true they are not.

And kinda my point is...they only did that after nearly a decade of sticking it to you. 888paintball anyone?

sepplainer

12-04-2007, 04:11 PM

They are not willing to make it right in the same way KEE was willing.

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 04:44 PM

All I would have to do is open a report on my computer and hit print. I assume thats the same for most people.

Really. Good...educate me then.Which report in your accounting software is going to give you the requirements below with a single stroke of the print button?

Reporting Obligations. Dealer represents that it has provided KEE Action Sports with a list of all other brands offered for sale on Dealer’s Web Site and shall provide KEE Action Sports with written disclosure of any additional brands it will offer on such web site after execution of this Agreement. Within five (5) business days after the end of each month, Dealer shall submit to KEE Action Sports a monthly report setting forth all internet/electronic commerce sales of the Paintball Products for such month, the location of each customer who has purchased Paintball Products on Dealer’s Web Site in such month, a list of Paintball Products then offered on Dealer’s Web Site, the approximate delay time between order placement and shipment of a Paintball Product, the return of any such Paintball Products and any other sales or marketing information related to the sale of the Paintball Products reasonably requested by KEE Action Sports.

Im familiar with PeachTree & QuickBooks Pro and Premier. Let me know which button Im supposed to hit to get the report supplying that info required above.

Cold Steel

12-04-2007, 04:54 PM

Having read most of this, the BIG question in my mind is this, WHY would any dealer feel compelled to provide ANY vendor with a sales history, current product inventory, and current pricing reports? I can appreciate MAP pricing for keeping the playing field level, but the bottomline is that I am THEIR customer. Our business relationship is not that of some crackhead on the street having to have his next fix, but rather I am their customer, buying their product, which has many competitors, in a down market. I am not going to be hassled by any companies new BS policy. If KEE (or whoever) is unwilling to accept that relationship, well then I, as a dealer, go somewhere else to do business. Not doing business with KEE (or whoever), that doesn't take much off of the table does it? What is the loss? No Mini's, no PMI paint? Those products can be replaced by similar products, with similar features, for about the same money. Why tolerate the BS?

If I treated my customers in the same manner, I'd only be doing my competition a favor.

My :twocents:
CS

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 04:57 PM

sepplainer

12-04-2007, 05:02 PM

If you use paypal via your EBAY store you will have it asap. In you B&M it could be tougher but you will still have paper copies of the transaction. Yet if you are a B&M shop you will play along because while you are at your shop all day you can surf the web and find lot's of people undercutting your prices and taking food out of your kids mouths. (If you then say, "well open some other kid of store." to said poor man, you miss the point. because they will open another kind of store and paintball will suffer)

Example of problem.
Guy A in Houston orders 10 Mini's for his shop. Then a unrelated Guy B in Beaumont has 5 online at a unrelated website below MAP and KEE has no records of selling the Website any products. They would request from the guy who just bought 10 to let them know who he sold them to before they ship him anymore.
Since KEE would like to stop people from undercutting their established MAP and making them look bad to all the other people selling their products they want to know how Guy B got his products. If Guy B turns out to be Guy A's buddie they want to recover cost from Guy A for the damage to their rep.

Where is your problem with that?

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 05:18 PM

If you use paypal via your EBAY store you will have it asap. In you B&M it could be tougher but you will still have paper copies of the transaction. Yet if you are a B&M shop you will play along because while you are at your shop all day you can surf the web and find lot's of people undercutting your prices and taking food out of your kids mouths. (If you then say, "well open some other kid of store." to said poor man, you miss the point. because they will open another kind of store and paintball will suffer)

1) eBay stores arent allowed by Kee any longer. So what eBay does and doesnt do really doesnt matter. But...
2) eBay stores dont store marketing info that you would use outside the eBay store.
3) ebay stores only list the products you sold at that time, not all the products you offered at that time that may not be listed in the eBay store. Which is one requirement of Kee. Not everyone lists every item they sell in their eBay store.

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 05:22 PM

Example of problem.
Guy A in Houston orders 10 Mini's for his shop. Then a unrelated Guy B in Beaumont has 5 online at a unrelated website below MAP and KEE has no records of selling the Website any products. They would request from the guy who just bought 10 to let them know who he sold them to before they ship him anymore.
Since KEE would like to stop people from undercutting their established MAP and making them look bad to all the other people selling their products they want to know how Guy B got his products. If Guy B turns out to be Guy A's buddie they want to recover cost from Guy A for the damage to their rep.

Where is your problem with that?

I dont have a problem with that. If you had read my posts on Page 1, you would have hopefully noticed these things I said...
--->

My quote of the Kee rules has nothing to do with MAP, so thats a non-issue.

Im a staunch proponent of limiting the basement dealer. But the way Kee is going about it is NOT the right way.

sepplainer

12-04-2007, 05:40 PM

Edit

Anjin3515

12-04-2007, 05:48 PM

I just want to honestly thank everyone for posting...this has been very educational.

Proof that a debate can be a good thing.

Props to Rogue and bryceeden for an intelligent and civil debate.

Oh and if it were me...and Kee wanted all that info about my other product sales...Id tell them to go shove it. There is no good reason they should have access to that sort of privileged information. Why should a dealer do market research for them? Why should a dealer "sell out" all the other companies that they sell?

bryceeden

12-05-2007, 07:15 AM

Really. Good...educate me then.Which report in your accounting software is going to give you the requirements below with a single stroke of the print button?

Im familiar with PeachTree & QuickBooks Pro and Premier. Let me know which button Im supposed to hit to get the report supplying that info required above.

Quick Books pro. It would actually be three reports but still not hard to print, just open them and print.

bryceeden

12-05-2007, 07:17 AM

Oh and if it were me...and Kee wanted all that info about my other product sales...Id tell them to go shove it. There is no good reason they should have access to that sort of privileged information. Why should a dealer do market research for them? Why should a dealer "sell out" all the other companies that they sell?

This is where they stepped over the line, and it doesn't make alot of sence.

RogueFactor

12-05-2007, 07:41 AM

Quick Books pro. It would actually be three reports but still not hard to print, just open them and print.

Excellent, I own both Quickbooks Pro & Quickbooks Premier. Which 3 QB reports are you referring to?

tymcneer

12-05-2007, 09:42 AM

Of all of the online debates about anything, this has been the most interesting and informative one I have read. I'm glad this has stayed so civil.

Sorry for the interruption. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Ty

bryceeden

12-05-2007, 11:07 AM

Excellent, I own both Quickbooks Pro & Quickbooks Premier. Which 3 QB reports are you referring to?
I guess ther are actually four.
I'll get the actual names once I get back to the shop. One is the inventory report which includes what all you've got and what it sells for. One is a customer report that tracks who purchased what and thier info. One is a return credit report. And the final one tracks expenses for advertising, shipping, and what not and would include the shipping dates if they were put in on time.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't really want to give these reports to anyone and in reallity I signed agreements with other distributors and manufacturers that I wouldn't give out wholesale price info which would be included in these reports, but they are printable easily enough.

I still agree that KEE has gone to far on thier info requirements, but I maintain that this action beats no action.

RogueFactor

12-05-2007, 11:08 AM

I guess ther are actually four.
I'll get the actual names once I get back to the shop. One is the inventory report which includes what all you've got and what it sells for. One is a customer report that tracks who purchased what and thier info. One is a return credit report. And the final one tracks expenses for advertising, shipping, and what not and would include the shipping dates if they were put in on time.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't really want to give these reports to anyone and in reallity I signed agreements with other distributors and manufacturers that I wouldn't give out wholesale price info which would be included in these reports, but they are printable easily enough.

And the last report of your marketing materials on a monthly basis? Which report in Quickbooks tracks that?

bryceeden

12-05-2007, 11:11 AM

And the last report of your marketing materials on a monthly basis? Which report in Quickbooks tracks that?

Its just the buisness expence report. It would have alot more than just marketing info on it, but the marketing info would be there. If KEE wants to know bad enough they can fish thru all that info to find it themselves.

RogueFactor

12-05-2007, 11:15 AM

Its just the buisness expence report. It would have alot more than just marketing info on it, but the marketing info would be there. If KEE wants to know bad enough they can fish thru all that info to find it themselves.

Ive run business expense reports. I was unaware that Quickbooks stores my advertisements, promo materials, coupons, discount promotions, Magazine advertisements, local newspaper ads, etc etc in that report.

All those graphics and such? Which setting in QB should I need to change to keep a record of all my marketing info. Thats what Kee is asking for from how Ive read it, not just an expense report.

sepplainer

12-05-2007, 11:32 AM

And the last report of your marketing materials on a monthly basis? Which report in Quickbooks tracks that?

I guess that would be any adds/promo's you knocked out on the computer. Which would take hours to gather up the files that u would have saved in your "adds/promos" folder.

So RougeFactor we all agree the policy is clumsy and reaching I would say don't buy KEE products if you think it is that big of a deal. Someone said earlier that all of the KEE products could be replaced with another companys stuff. So do it.

The industry is going to see more of a massive turn down over the next year and KEE/DYE/**/PE are all going to reach harder and harder for each others market share. B&M shops are the ones who will feel that fight the most. KEE is trying to show the B&M owners that they are going to help them maintain profits and keep the doors open.

RogueFactor

12-05-2007, 12:02 PM

I guess that would be any adds/promo's you knocked out on the computer. Which would take hours to gather up the files that u would have saved in your "adds/promos" folder.
Or that werent even created by the dealer.

So RougeFactor we all agree the policy is clumsy and reaching I would say don't buy KEE products if you think it is that big of a deal. Someone said earlier that all of the KEE products could be replaced with another companys stuff. So do it.
Already have.

KEE is trying to show the B&M owners that they are going to help them maintain profits and keep the doors open.
Yeah, so is everyone else. Its all lip-service until I see proof---a track record of change. Over a decade of screwing it to the dealers doesnt get a free-pass with 6 months of good behavior.

sepplainer

12-05-2007, 12:18 PM

Or that werent even created by the dealer.

Yeah, so is everyone else. Its all lip-service until I see proof---a track record of change. Over a decade of screwing it to the dealers doesnt get a free-pass with 6 months of good behavior.

I guess thats why I see this as good. They got no more excusses for not stopping below MAP selling.

But I think this is taking eyes off the real problem in the industry to some degree. There is way more gear then buyers. Paintball needs another $350 tourny ready marker like we need another Grand Canyon. Yet every company wants to get one out there.

RogueFactor

12-05-2007, 12:59 PM

I guess thats why I see this as good. They got no more excusses for not stopping below MAP selling.
Who has no more excuses?

But I think this is taking eyes off the real problem in the industry to some degree. There is way more gear then buyers. Paintball needs another $350 tourny ready marker like we need another Grand Canyon. Yet every company wants to get one out there.
Agreed.

bryceeden

12-05-2007, 01:58 PM

Ive run business expense reports. I was unaware that Quickbooks stores my advertisements, promo materials, coupons, discount promotions, Magazine advertisements, local newspaper ads, etc etc in that report.

All those graphics and such? Which setting in QB should I need to change to keep a record of all my marketing info. Thats what Kee is asking for from how Ive read it, not just an expense report.

That could be the case. I thought they just wanted how much you've spent on ads and stuff which quick books does store if you set it up. Actual ads do make more sence, if thats the case its still not super hard to keep track of, but it does make it more difficult.

To tell you the truth I'm not super conserned about KEEs internet policy, and as such haven't even read the whole thing. Befor joining PBL I had never even tried to sell stuff online. Even now I am really only offering hard to find stuff for the most part and as more of a favor than anything as the amount I could make on here is negligable at best. Sorry, I know its alittle hypocritical but thats the way I feel. People like you who have a product no one else does I can understand online as people want and need the product and local stores won't have it. But I would love to see the major paintball companys go the way of Trek and other companys and just ban internet sales all together. I don't mind actionvillage and stuff so much as I can match thier prices on everything(I set my prices right at MAP on everything the second I get it), but I would do most anything to get rid of the no expence basement people we have been talking about even if it would greatly inconvinience me.

Yeah, so is everyone else. Its all lip-service until I see proof---a track record of change. Over a decade of screwing it to the dealers doesnt get a free-pass with 6 months of good behavior.

But thats just it, not everyone else is. In fact very few are and they just started too.

bryceeden

12-05-2007, 02:12 PM

I just want to honestly thank everyone for posting...this has been very educational.

Proof that a debate can be a good thing.

Props to Rogue and bryceeden for an intelligent and civil debate.

Me and Rogue talk about the industry all the time on various Forums, and lately on the phone alittle. I don't think either of us has any bad feelings toward the other, we just disagee sometimes and discuss it alot. He tends to catch it when I type befor I think or do research rather well and does a good job keeping my facts strait. I kind of enjoy our debates actually.

Ninjeff

12-05-2007, 02:42 PM

But I think this is taking eyes off the real problem in the industry to some degree. There is way more gear then buyers. Paintball needs another $350 tourny ready marker like we need another Grand Canyon. Yet every company wants to get one out there.

INdeed. Well put.

RogueFactor

12-05-2007, 03:05 PM

Proof that a debate can be a good thing.

Props to Rogue and bryceeden for an intelligent and civil debate.
bryceeden is a very smart dude. His knowledge and experience are surprisingly vast considering he is only 22.

I don't think either of us has any bad feelings toward the other, we just disagee sometimes and discuss it alot.
No bad feelings on this end. There is nothing better than a civilized debate with someone as intelligent and as respectful as bryce has been.

I kind of enjoy our debates actually.
Me too. Usually through debate I get anothers persons perspective that I didnt have before, and it opens my eyes to facts and info I hadnt previously considered.

RogueFactor

12-05-2007, 03:14 PM

...if thats the case its still not super hard to keep track of, but it does make it more difficult...
It only seems slightly more difficult because you arent looking at it from an internet stores perspective. In a B&M store, all orders are originally entered in QuickBooks(or whatever accounting software). For internet dealers, Quickbooks doesnt have an E-commerce store, so they have dual sets of systems working here. One on the internet, and one for accounting. Now, that doesnt mean that there arent converters...but again, its one more hassle(and expense) being put on only 1 type of dealer.

Sorry, I know its alittle hypocritical but thats the way I feel.
I was just bustin' your chops to prove a point. The problem I have with what Kee is doing is its the "Slippery Slope". I coudnt care less who sells what on the internet.

I would do most anything to get rid of the no expence basement people we have been talking about even if it would greatly inconvinience me.
The simplest way to get rid of them, is not to allow them to be a dealer in the first place. And thats a fairly simple process if the manufacturers werent so damn short-sided and didnt want to turn away a dealer that actually HURTS their business more than it helps.