It just came to me whats missing in the industry now... [Archive]

RogueFactor

12-03-2007, 10:49 PM

Not innovation necessarily(even though we are in shorty supply of it too).

We are missing creativity. The creativity that disappeared when small companies were put out of business by the electro-Patent debacles.

The small companies that used to come up with all kinds of crack-pot ideas. That was the good stuff. Those ideas may not have sold by the butt-loads, but it sure was interesting to see. And that spurred on even more creativity, which in some ways had an effect on innovation. It sent the bigger mfr's in directions they didnt know to go.

Now, those small creative companies are gone. And so is that large chunk of creativity. So the big companies can only re-package the same stuff and only change it in small ways because they dont have the small companies to guide them and show them the direction the market wants to go.

Its been staring me in the face, and I hadnt taken notice.Tom said it to me just recently, how mags still have people tinkering with them and that he enjoys seeing all the wonderful variety of creations.

I cant think of many markers in the industry that have this. Everything is cookie-cutter now.

Ninjeff

12-03-2007, 11:08 PM

dude, i couldnt agree more.

I think i started saying something like that in some other thread, but you stated it alot better.

One thing i REALLY enjoy about paintball, other than the sport, and friends, is the constant search for....well.....whatever. Its the off season now, and the only thing i have to keep me occupied paintball wise is my search for parts to build my custom Mag with. Looking for oddball rails, thinking of anno ideas, deciding if i want part-A or part-B, and then looking for them. And dont even get me started on my 'cocker build for the spring! Me and my roomate spent 3 hours the past weekend scouring the internet for crazy cocker bodies and odd pump ideas. This kinda thing can keep me entertained for hours. Hell, days even. Its how i get through the long crap days in my cubicle at work.
Heck, i am jazzed about my current project, but i know as soon as im done i'll want to build ANOTHER mag....maybe try a Y-frame, who knows. And my roomate currently has 3 (yes 3!) diffrent PUMP mag creations in the works as we speak. If only he could find pump rail milling.....

Anyhow, whats to love now-a-days with markers? Sure i could get a sweet new Mini...but then what do i have to do....erm....well...not a damn thing. thats what. Oh sure, maybe a new trigger, a new bolt, or some grips. Pssh.
No thanks, i'll take my 'mags and 'cockers' and phantoms and hell even a tippmann any day. Its endless the things you can do with older guns. And for me, thats half the battle.

Anjin3515

12-03-2007, 11:29 PM

Ahh Rogue I think you hit it on the head!

Sadly it seems the same with anything that approaches the "mainstream of popularity".
Ok this is a little off kilter but it reminds me of movies,music and video games.

People come out with some crazy creative stuff....look at Star Wars in the 70's/80's and how "out there" the effects were. Early Punk Rock tossed things on its head, as well as early Rock and Roll. Go back to the early days of video games and there were all sorts of crazy idea games.

Then things become popular. They begin to seep into the masses. The "producers" of these entertainments begin to look at the $$$$ and not the creativity. So they copy the most creative stuff hoping to ride the wave of it. What was once creative, now becomes a sea of clones that are sad 1/2 hearted version of the creative forefathers.

It seems paintball is sort of like this. Maybe I am off in the analogy...wouldn't be the first time my wacked mind make some strange parallels .

bryceeden

12-04-2007, 05:21 AM

This is true, definatly. There hasn't been much in the way of new stuff in a while. The Mini last year and th JRNY this ear are probably about as close as we'll get anytime soon.

TnDeathInc

12-04-2007, 06:18 AM

/agre you hit thr nail on the head.

Raven

12-04-2007, 06:59 AM

The small companies are gone cause the big ones will sue their *** off if they infringe on their patent or trademark.

xmagman

12-04-2007, 07:10 AM

I agree with what most of you are saying.

Although there seems to be an endless sea of clones out there. A few small creative companies have survived the constant onslught of the masses. And those are the companies we need to support with our $$.
I also belive that paintball will cycle back to it's former self someday. Most things travel in cycles. Some examples are clothing and cars. What was old will be new or a new idea again. So there is hope that paintball will revert to a state of the good 'ol days.

Mind'sEye

12-04-2007, 07:53 AM

Part of the old creative process was adaptive, like turning the Sniper into an Autococker and adapting the Automag to electro Emags. These were the very cool kind of elegant designs that are born out of necessity, designs that required true genius. Now there is basically one consolidated design. There may be differences in valve systems and placement of components but it's basically the same marker repeated over and over.

Today, I think part of the problem is our own knowledge base. Maybe one in every fifty of those "crack-pot" ideas from back in the day actually worked well enough to become usable. As black boxes and rifled barrels came under scientific scrutiny by, the magic left paintball.

Mechanic79

12-04-2007, 08:28 AM

You hit that dead on.

Creativity is certainly dead amongst new products. The technology has peaked. We are all lucky paintball has made it this far.

Tom Kaye cornered the market years ago with the Automag and other innovations. Now the cookie cutter companies are coming back to that original single tube design.

Must be rough to start out at the top!;)
(integrated reg, warp, N2, level X, ULT, just to name a few. And the fact that most are compatible with everything Automag just makes it that much more.)

TnDeathInc

12-04-2007, 08:53 AM

Can you not say that innovative people were stopped by patents? Im not sure how gforce didnt get stopped dead in their tracks. Creativity is - 2. the ability to transcend traditional ideas, rules, patterns, relationships, or the like, and to create meaningful new ideas, forms, methods, interpretations, etc.; originality, progressiveness, or imagination: the need for creativity in modern industry; creativity in the performing arts.

You can not so this when patents are blocking roads for creativity - I mean whats the incentive to inventors if they ahave to pay royalites. I may be ignorant but can you tell me how ---

drug patents last of only so many years and then generics come out....other new things come out toys etc...then a few years later clones of such come out....why is paintball any different and seem to be pigeon holed into this spiral?

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 09:17 AM

Ninjeff

12-04-2007, 01:00 PM

In the same respect though, how many different ways can you shoot a ball filled with paint out of a metal tube?

Dont get me wrong, i agree (as stated above) but i wonder if this "creative" well is almost dry for ideas.

Its either that, or the people with idea are too damn scared to pursue them due to all the potential lawsuits.

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 02:40 PM

Dont get me wrong, i agree (as stated above) but i wonder if this "creative" well is almost dry for ideas.

The most creative things came from small mfrs and the customer who tinkered with their markers to individualize them.

The markers being put out these days dont allow for much of that. Your pretty much stuck with what they give you. And their marker looks pretty much the same as all the others. Someone posted a pic of a bunch of black markers, that really opened my eyes.

bryceeden

12-04-2007, 03:57 PM

That was an interesting picture. Sad but true. Nothing is really tinkerable anymore unless you want to break it.

Ninjeff

12-04-2007, 04:46 PM

Id like to see that pic.

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 04:54 PM

Id like to see that pic.

http://www.pblegion.com/showthread.php?t=40

Ninjeff

12-04-2007, 04:56 PM

Wow i knew they all looked the same.....but thats pathetic!

Dark Side

12-04-2007, 04:57 PM

I was kinda hoping what we were missing was Strippers..... :smarty:

RogueFactor

12-04-2007, 05:26 PM

Wow i knew they all looked the same.....but thats pathetic!

Imagine trying to do that with markers a decade ago.

The Mag, the cocker, the Tippman, the Spyder, and maybe we can squeeze the Angel & Shoebox ******* in there too.

Do you think those markers would even look remotely alike?

Anjin3515

12-04-2007, 05:39 PM

Originally I did that to be a test to see if someone could tell the markers apart....

doing it it really did hit me that design wise NO ONE is doing anything very interesting....its all copy cat stuff (well maybe a few here and there...didnt DP do some crazy milling on something??)

Mind'sEye

12-05-2007, 07:18 AM

The most creative things came from small mfrs and the customer who tinkered with their markers to individualize them.

The markers being put out these days dont allow for much of that. Your pretty much stuck with what they give you. And their marker looks pretty much the same as all the others. Someone posted a pic of a bunch of black markers, that really opened my eyes.

There seems to be a critical point in any industry where product begins to become standardized. The Beta vs VHS video tape battle is an example. I'm also thinking of the trends that automobiles go through. In the 80's and early 90's the "wedge" shape dominated styling, while today the vast majority of cars have a very rounded "bubble" look. I don't think the lack of creativity is necessarily limited to the paintball industry. I'd be the first to agree that smart parts and the patent lawsuits have adversely effected creativity, but there's some sort of universal trend there too. The consumers never seem to stand up and say, "I don't want to drive around in a bubble car." and so we continue to get what the manufacturers produce.

bryceeden

12-05-2007, 07:28 AM

(well maybe a few here and there...didnt DP do some crazy milling on something??)

I think your thinking of the Threshold.
http://www.americanpaintballsupply.com/images/product/large/lg_1510.jpg
http://www.americanpaintballsupply.com/images/product/option/1510.1041.1067.jpg
http://www.americanpaintballsupply.com/images/product/option/1510.1041.1065.jpg
http://www.americanpaintballsupply.com/images/product/option/1510.1041.1066.jpg
Its definatly more milled on the sides, but the basic marker shape is the same as those in your picture. It also only comes in those four colors which are different from most markers and makes it stand out more.

Actually for the most part this marker was not well recived.

Anjin3515

12-05-2007, 07:43 AM

Creativity in product design always suffers under the reality of needing to make $$$. Manufactures would rather stick with the "tried and true" then risk doing something new and have it flop.....

However....there is a risk reward factor. Every once in awhile someone will take the risk of doing something different and IF it goes over well....it reaps big $$ and shifts the general paradigm. Then everyone tries to copy it and we wind up back with homogenized products.

Example:
1) TV: Lost comes out on ABC and becomes a hit. At the time it is a rather unique show.
Next season or two you see a ton of similar ideas all over TV...most fail.

2) Cell Phones: Apple releases the iTouch. Innovative interface and design. Have you seen some of the new phones coming out...they mimic the look of the iTouch

3) Video Games: Grand Theft Auto creates a new mature open ended type of game play, it goes on to sell huge numbers. Companies in the next few years rush to make games "like" it...Saints Row comes to mind off the top of my head.

Funny thing is that rarely do the clones do as well as the original....but they do well enough to make it "safe money".

Eventually someone will take a risk and try some whacked out new design style of a paintball marker. People will like it....and then we will see a generation of copycats.....its bound to happen.

Anjin3515

12-05-2007, 07:49 AM

I think your thinking of the Threshold.
http://www.americanpaintballsupply.com/images/product/large/lg_1510.jpg
http://www.americanpaintballsupply.com/images/product/option/1510.1041.1067.jpg
http://www.americanpaintballsupply.com/images/product/option/1510.1041.1065.jpg
http://www.americanpaintballsupply.com/images/product/option/1510.1041.1066.jpg
Its definatly more milled on the sides, but the basic marker shape is the same as those in your picture. It also only comes in those four colors which are different from most markers and makes it stand out more.

Actually for the most part this marker was not well recived.

Yup thats it.

There is the risk reward thing....sometimes the risk fails....
But...someone will hit on something new that people do like and then we will see a bunch of copy cats.

Thats the hard part with design. If you want to be creative....you need to take the risk of going against the "popular style" some times it fails, other times it hits and yo wind up with a ton of $$$$$$

Look at the the Mini Cooper....it came out as a very unique design compared to the rest of cars....it happened to work and went on to sell very well....
Then look at the Thunderbird they came out with a few years ago...people hated it even though it was unique...and it bombed.
Interesting note that both are just updates of old designs...but thats a whole nother topic :)

JAM

12-06-2007, 06:32 AM

The most creative things came from small mfrs and the customer who tinkered with their markers to individualize them.

The markers being put out these days dont allow for much of that. Your pretty much stuck with what they give you. And their marker looks pretty much the same as all the others. Someone posted a pic of a bunch of black markers, that really opened my eyes.

that's a very interesting point.... I run my EGOs pretty much stock, but I still enjoy looking for and switching out pieces on my 8 year old autococker. Unfortunately, only one of my 3 local shops even has a cocker section- and it shrinks by the month.

I wish batteries would spike in price- driving people back to mechs. ;)

I don't think the game can be driven by technology anymore... I think we've reached a plateau. Would it serve us to shoot 40 or 50 bps? ($5/per sec... $300/per minute... $18,000.00/hr.) wow.

I doubt we'll see any great technological leaps in the [near] future. The industry as a whole will have to switch back to taking care of the players. Getting and keeping new players is the only way the game will flourish.

Anjin3515

12-06-2007, 06:43 AM

that's a very interesting point.... I run my EGOs pretty much stock, but I still enjoy looking for and switching out pieces on my 8 year old autococker. Unfortunately, only one of my 3 local shops even has a cocker section- and it shrinks by the month.

I wish batteries would spike in price- driving people back to mechs. ;)

I don't think the game can be driven by technology anymore... I think we've reached a plateau. Would it serve us to shoot 40 or 50 bps? ($5/per sec... $300/per minute... $18,000.00/hr.) wow.

I doubt we'll see any great technological leaps in the [near] future. The industry as a whole will have to switch back to taking care of the players. Getting and keeping new players is the only way the game will flourish.

Paintball with either be....

Like cars: little has been done to inovate the engine over the years (untill the recent hybrid stuff)....for most of the life of cars engines have pretty much been the same...just tweaked.

Like science: There have been a number of points in science where the community has said" well we pretty much know it all now"....only to find things like quantum physics...and it starts a whole new paradigm

Paintball stuff may never go beyond what we now have, only marginal tiny improvements....then again...you never know, someone may find a way to REALLY innovate the whole concept.

Ninjeff

12-06-2007, 06:26 PM

I wonder if thats part of the draw for the new generation of woodsballers?

You dont get much individuality from modern electros, but the woodsball crowd is almost drowning in the stuff.

RogueFactor

12-06-2007, 06:53 PM

I wonder if thats part of the draw for the new generation of woodsballers?

You dont get much individuality from modern electros, but the woodsball crowd is almost drowning in the stuff.

Thanks for that. It was staring me in the face, and I didnt even notice. I didnt put 2+2 together to realize that most obvious of connections.:wthumpup:

Ninjeff

12-06-2007, 07:33 PM

Thanks for that. It was staring me in the face, and I didnt even notice. I didnt put 2+2 together to realize that most obvious of connections.:wthumpup:

Is this sarcasm? And if so...why?

RogueFactor

12-06-2007, 07:36 PM

Is this sarcasm? And if so...why?

Nope, it wasnt sarcasm at all. I meant every word. I never made the connection as to why woodsball is flourishing while tourneyball isnt.

I think your anger from the other thread is clouding your judgement.

Ninjeff

12-06-2007, 07:40 PM

Nope, it wasnt sarcasm at all. I meant every word. I never made the connection as to why woodsball is flourishing while tourneyball isnt.

I think your anger from the other thread is clouding your judgement.

Could be...yeah. LOL. I appologize.

I wish i could afford to build a dedicated woodsball milsim type gun again. But this mag project is taking up all my imagination.:happydance:

Anjin3515

12-06-2007, 09:23 PM

I wonder if thats part of the draw for the new generation of woodsballers?

You dont get much individuality from modern electros, but the woodsball crowd is almost drowning in the stuff.

Good point!
Whatever you want to say about Tippmann....you can make them look pretty much however you want. Either via the many commercial options or modding.

Ninjeff

12-06-2007, 09:34 PM

i love tippmanns. Great markers imo.

Not MAG great, but still pretty nifty.

Anjin3515

12-06-2007, 09:53 PM

i love tippmanns. Great markers imo.

Not MAG great, but still pretty nifty.

I do too....one thing....I would LOVE to see them come out with a "high end" marker.

TnDeathInc

12-07-2007, 07:11 AM

they have a good following for sure, go to any scenario game. Hell, i still see many of their guns that are in circulation. I have a one inthe garage somewhere.

RogueFactor

12-07-2007, 08:36 AM

Old Tippmanns were good, no doubt. It was the workhorse of the industry, and built rock-solid. All things change...

When Tippmann was bought by a corporate firm, they re-did the Custom 98 to make them cheaper---and its having reliability issues. Ive heard/been told that this next year Tippmann plans to go back to the old design.