"More on Wiping"

[RogueFactor]

Just got back in, great topic. Figured I'd "bump" it back to the top, so to speak. I'm gonna rant here, so feel free to step back lest I get some spittle on you...

Wiping is cheating, period. It's really that simple. It's not a "foul", it's cheating.

Put it this way: The Point of the Game is to Mark Players. By thus marking them, you remove them from the game, and you can then complete the other part of the game- grabbing or hanging the flag. (Or completing the scenario mission, or whatever.)

If Players Don't Leave The Game When Marked, What The Hell Is The Point Of The Game?

If it's just to stand around and shoot paintball guns, I can do that a lot easier in my backyard.

The point of the game is to outthink or outmaneuver the other player(s) and get into a position to mark them with a ball. If the other player does not leave the game when marked, then what the hell's the point?

If I play chess and get the other guy into 'check', and he decides that all of a sudden the King can jump over other pieces and move up to ten spaces in any direction, then what's the point of playing?

Yes, there are fouls and rules infractions in other sports. There's even various levels, from an elbow to the guy blocking the basket, to a near-crippling face-mask pull.

But none of those things keep the other team from being ABLE to score.

As it says in the T-Shirt Page, wiping in paintball is erasing a score. No matter how many fouls a basketball player makes, if the other team gets the ball in the basket, they get a point.

Wiping would be like taping the hole in the basket shut so that scoring isn't possible. Or putting a sheet of plywood over the hockey goal, or putting a 50-foot chain-link fence across the end zone.

If scoring isn't possible, or scores that are made are voided and erased, why bother playing the game?

I keep asking myself that, and wondering what the answer is.

Yes, a "creative" wipe/cheat might help you win the game. Hey, in that case, with a small handgun, I could beat Mike Tyson in a "boxing" match! That's not cheating, that's murder you say? Hey, there's a $25 million prize on the line! Isn't that worth a little creative interpretation of the rules?

No, chances are we'll never get rid of cheating and wiping entirely- no sport can entirely purge the undesirables. There's jackass participants in every sport; did you see when Kasparov stormed off the stage when beaten by Big Blue?

But that doesn't mean we need to encourage it, or even allow it simply because "everyone else is doing it". If you wipe, you're cheating, and if you're cheating, then you must feel you're not good enough a player to be able to win clean.

Doc.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/9013/message/1145574796/More+on+Wiping-

[riflemanwi]

good read.. so true.. theres no reason to play if you cant eliminate the other person cuz their wiping

[tymcneer]

Score one more for Doc Nickel! Great rant... Too bad the people that need to hear, won't listen! :(

Ty

[bryceeden]

very true

[riflemanwi]

Score one more for Doc Nickel! Great rant... Too bad the people that need to hear, won't listen! :(

Ty

yea.. most ppl will prolly blow it off.. if you put it on PBN he would prolly be called a newb or something...

[Ninjeff]

HERE HERE!

:cheers:

[Maniac Mechanic]

yea.. most ppl will prolly blow it off.. if you put it on PBN he would prolly be called a newb or something...

if you put it on pbn he would be banned & the thread deleated

[Mechanic79]

This was a great writing I remember reading this when it was first posted.

This is what everyone that plays should read and practice.

[Mind'sEye]

Back when paintball was just a fun game, wiping was considered dishonorable. Now that paintball has become a competitive sport, wiping just another way to attempt to gain an "edge". Like holding in football, it's done until you get caught. As long as Barry Bonds remains in the all time home run record books, honesty is going to be a tough sell.

The only answer is at the grass roots. Find people of like mind and form a group. Get involved with youth. I'm play with a church group that focuses on teaching honesty, fairplay and safety to youth. I really commend bryceeden for taking positive action at his field. Pass the old ways on even as the game continues to evolve. I don't know what else to say. It's not just in paintball. It's everywhere......

[riflemanwi]

if you put it on pbn he would be banned & the thread deleated

true true :cheers:

[druid]

yea.. most ppl will prolly blow it off.. if you put it on PBN he would prolly be called a newb or something...

That's the problem with technology and things becoming too "big." Nation is a tremendous source of information but the sheer magnitude of the membership is impossible to control :slap:. The moderators there must go out of their minds with reported posts, looking for dupe accounts and just the basic ***-hattery that goes on there in general.
The only other thing it's good for is the B/S/T section...and even then you are taking a risk of some jerk-off running a scheme.
Big doesn't always mean better. Normandy 07 at Skirmish was proof-positive of that.


Back when paintball was just a fun game, wiping was considered dishonorable.

Exactly...and people were "African-American-Sphered" (black-balled :glare: )
because of it.

Now that paintball has become a competitive sport, wiping just another way to attempt to gain an "edge". Like holding in football, it's done until you get caught. As long as Barry Bonds remains in the all time home run record books, honesty is going to be a tough sell.

It didn't start out that way and those of us who were there from the beginnings (for me, in 86), remember when the first 'cheater-boards' started showing up. They were created because team/player X couldn't shoot for ****, couldn't maintain constant fire and was too fat or lazy to get his *** up-field where it belonged. They started out being the original 'heavy-gunners' for speedball...solely designed to eliminate by saturation...or get faster, more ambitious team-mates up the field.

And let's not forget the power of the Almighty Dollar. People rave about Virtue simply because "___X____" team uses it. If that team wins, it must be because of that board or product...so companies will continue to promote those teams that earn them profits, regardless of how they win.


The only answer is at the grass roots. Find people of like mind and form a group. Get involved with youth. I'm play with a church group that focuses on teaching honesty, fairplay and safety to youth. I really commend bryceeden for taking positive action at his field. Pass the old ways on even as the game continues to evolve. I don't know what else to say. It's not just in paintball. It's everywhere......

Exactly. One of my workmates owns 70 acres of land. 50 is farmed and non-playable but the other ~20 is the woodlot that borders the property. It would be a swamp (drainage area for the fields) if the elevation weren't so high but because it is...it's PA Hardwoods. Ten years ago, I was originally looking for a place to hunt whitetails...he had the land, I wanted the game that he wanted gone...it was perfect!

So we hit it off pretty well and in passing conversation I was talking about going to Skirmish for a game. He was "sort of" interested and I had a few extra set-ups...so we played in his woods instead. I told him what he needed vs what I'd loan him and now we've gotten up to 50 players on the field at any one time...lmao.

Others that got permission to hunt the land, saw the paint all over the woods and naturally asked about it. They were curious...so we invited them too...then they brought their kids because they had a blast...and then them, their kids and their kids' buddies started to show....My Scenario Team showed up with like 20 strong one day...and then there's the area kids that heard by 'word-of-mouth.' The property owner's bro-in-law is a Twp Police Officer...he's into it now and got his fellow Officers involved...

So since we work in a Prison and the Police show up to play...we use it as a recreation that keeps the area kids out of trouble. Now mind you...this is just a renegade field...but the Police Chief showed up one day just to see what was going on (he's one that actually patrols in a vehicle...not just sit at a desk). He stood watching us from where we park and invited him to get closer. I gave him a spare mask to wear and a Ref shield to hold and he got right down in there with us (as an observer). He was impressed and when we broke for lunch, he even commented how criminal mischief complaints dropped 39% since we started absorbing more of the area kids.

The things we impress on these kids is safety first...and use the "egg demonstration" (Sit an egg on an orange traffic cone and shoot it...and tell them "that's your eye if you take off your goggles"...speech). We also mandate chrono to 280 fps (that's my rule :clap: ) and have one or 2 running at any given time. There are safety areas covered by military-grade Tyvek (don't even ask...I won't tell you) and when peeps show up, they stage until a game is over and we get them set up to go.

I'm kind-of an unofficial tech for the field...meaning someone has a (relatively minor) issue and I show them how to fix it themselves. I'm very familiar with low-ends and some mid-ends but rarely a high-end and most of these kids couldn't afford them anyway. We do have a few guys at work with Angels, Timmys and ACs...but they have also been in the game a while and tech their own gear (which is fine for me, because I HATE timing ACs :wall: )...

We teach them sportsmanship, honor and above all - humility. How to be a humble winner and an optimistic loser. We show them how to just have fun...and it works. Call it a mentor-system...a "Public Service" activity...whatever, it works. You lay down the rules and stick with them. We don't have sponsors to thank or "super-heros" to worship.

If you give a man a fish, he will eat for a day.
If you teach a man how to fish, he will eat for the rest of his life.

It all starts with us teaching the new guys the right way their first times out.

[Army]

Wiping can be gone from tournies, if the rule of one-for-one was dropped, and team eliminaton was instilled.

Geez, we all can remember the uproar over the RT; "OH MI'GOSH! IT SHOOTS TOO FAST! SOMEONES GONNA GET HURT! MAKE A RULE AGAINST IT, QUICK!! Regardless it still took one pull per shot. With ramping, the gun fires more balls than the RT could ever hope for......yet, nothing. In fact, ramping is ENCOURAGED! Opponant didn't leave as quickly as you want him to? Shoot him 10 more times for "good measure".

My tourney rules would revert back to: "One hit, one out. If paint is wiped off, that team is elminated for that game. Second infraction will eliminate team from tourney, with no refund of fees. Overshooting will result in team elimination from game. Second infraction will eliminate team from tourney, with no refund of fees........and no T-shirt either. There will be NO review of actions. Head Ref will make final decision."

So simple, a Gardner can understand it.

[druid]

yeah...but sponsors can't make money off that :D

[JAM]

So simple, a Gardner can understand it.

Hilarious. ;)

I do agree though, wiping hits is the most basic of cheating acts. Much worse than playing on/ignoring hits. Unfortunately, with money on the line and no cameras/etc, cheating will continue in tourneys no matter what the consequence. It's up to each player to be honorable, and that just won't happen- though punishing teams for blatant infractions could help, Sponsors won't be too happy with a team that gets booted from a tourney rather than advertising the sponsor's product throughout.

[tymcneer]

Now hold on Army... The elimination of team from a tournament for multiple counts of cheating... Why, that's... UnAmerican!

NOT!!!

This would work and I believe that it should be implemented, but the sponsors would have a cow. Just think... teams would not be allowed to cheat... Therefore their skills would have to improve... Therefore less paint shot, less technology used/abused, etc... Talk about upsetting the sponsor's apple cart!

The simplest way for people to deal with the wiping issue is on the personal level. Our scenario team does NOT allow people to cheat. If we catch you, you are potentially off the team. Multiple infractions... We will throw you off the team, and make sure to explain to our associated teams WHY we threw you out!

Ty