Tickets are out of control!!!

[sandfreestyle]

I knew that with the current buget the way it is it was only a matter of time till ticket fines go up and more frequent. But HOLY ****, this is crazy. It's getting harder and harder to go anywhere in Socal anymore without having to fear a BS ticket. Here's a couple of examples:

Guy gets a ticket for doing 13mph over posted limit of 45mph while on his motorcycle. Brick walls one side of the street, open fields on the other. $758 fine, argued down to $556.

Case after that in court was a man who got a ticket while riding his bicycle on the bike path at dawn, sun was not fully up yet, with no headlight. $150 fine.

Car moves into the "car pool" lane on the on-ramp for the freeway inorder to get out of the intersection, then moves over after they are clear of the intersection. $200 fine for violation of carpool lane.

Talking on a cell phone while driving, $25 first time offense ticket. Pay over $100 in fees and other legal crap.

Just now in front of my work, 12 cars given tickets while parked for not having a front liscence plate (mainly Mercedes and BMW's). $70 fine.

I guess I'm just tired of seeing people get robbed one way or the other because of stupid stuff like gas prices, taxes, tickets, fines, etc. because someone can't manage a check book.

[RogueFactor]

Theyll get it from you one way or another.:wall:

[Tracker]

i got a ticket for speeding here in las vegas, cited speed ticket was for 5 over. actual speed was 12 over both were written on the ticket so i was screwed either way

was middle of the night, medium traffic on freeway in construction zone

best part, i was maintaining the speed of traffic, and i actually had some guy pass me as the cop was tailgating me to check my speed

lil background, the entire freeway here was under construction all at once thanks to 3 seperate projects all going on at the same time, there werent any lane closures at the time, and generally here, traffic doesnt slow down to construction zone speeds when theres a construction zone, unless theres a need. so apparently what i SHOULD have done, was drive in the right lane doing 55 while everyone whips by me at 70+ and somehow, thats supposed to be less dangerous to myself and other motorists.... give me a break

its not just socal that kinda crap happens

oh yeah, and after having a lawyer friend take care of it for me on a favor, it still cost me over 200 dollars *more if id had to pay his fees*

Tracker

[wetwrks]

I recently read about an officer ticketing people for pulling across the street (facing the wrong direction) to get their mail from a mass mail box. $70 fine and 4 points. Don't know but I would bet the officer would have ticketed them for pulling a U turn to park facing the right direction.

I also read that cities with the red light cameras have shortened the time of the yellow light to increase the number of people who receive fines for running it. In some cases the time of the yellow is shorter than Federal limits. One city had to return something like 8 million dollars they collected because of a yellow that was too short.

I'm sorry but this is nothing more than a form of taxation without the need to get approval from the voters. Basically it results in taxation without representation and this is part of what we fought against the Brittish over.

So has there been a date set for the revolution yet?

[MorueM]

Revolution has begun in the old country..

http://www.speedcam.co.uk/gatso2.htm

[wetwrks]

Revolution has begun in the old country..

http://www.speedcam.co.uk/gatso2.htm

Here in the US you have the right to confront your accuser in court. With such machines there is no accuser thus every ticket should be thrown out.

[hill160881]

How about this. I pay two tickets off and three years later i get a notice from a collection agency saying i owe $1200 instead of the $800 i all ready paid. They actually asked me for the receipt for my payoff of the original tickets. Ya three years later. After a long and drawn out fight with the local court house i was informed that i either pay up or loose my license.

Suffice it to say monterey county will loose 1200 worth of assets someday. But dont ask me about it because i know nothing. I was thinking a collection of street signs.

And my last ticket was a failure to stop. Ok i did not stop. It was a hiway patrol that got me and we were in the middle of nowhere on a dead end road with 7 unmarked intersections along its length.. If the county does not bother to put up signs at all but one intersection then gives a ticket at the one where there is a sign. that is pathetic. What is a HIGHWAY PATROL doing 13 miles from the nearest real highway? Right, doing his job patrolling residential streets. In fact i was the only one out of 5 people he pulled over that day who got a ticket. Guess i should have been driving a mini-van instead of an audi tt.

Cops are money collectors and report filers. They do nothing to protect me only show up after to write down what happen and never follow up. Grand theft auto gets a 3 hour response time and double homicide gets 45min response time.

Underage drunken hit and run. and the sherif told me to call the HP and just sat there in his chair looking at me. When i got °°°°ed he said that traffic issues were not his responsibility and since a car was what was hit and not a person it was not a big deal. A drunk girl drove through a locked gate and totaled a car parked in my driveway. She was so drunk she could not even use a driveway to turn around and the cop said it was no big deal.

Its not just tickets, its the cops to

[sandfreestyle]

Underage drunken hit and run. and the sherif told me to call the HP and just sat there in his chair looking at me. When i got °°°°ed he said that traffic issues were not his responsibility and since a car was what was hit and not a person it was not a big deal. A drunk girl drove through a locked gate and totaled a car parked in my driveway. She was so drunk she could not even use a driveway to turn around and the cop said it was no big deal.

May not have been his area of work but he should have gotten up off his fat °°° and at least assissted you with what he could. I feel for ya man.

[wetwrks]

On another site people have been posting up reports of the killings of officers and forrest agents. I mentioned that with the general anger the public has towards the government right now, is it any supprise that this sort of thing has been on the increase. At no point did I even imply that they deserved it yet they called me every name in the book over the post.

[sandfreestyle]

I see it going further then that in thfuture if things don't change soon. I can seriously see a mob of people marching down a street with arms in hand.

[hill160881]

yep im ready. My pitch fork is sharp and my torch is ready to light

[druid]

To the OP..

How else do you think they will pay for the 'entitlements' that the government seems to think people need? There's always a major uproar when taxes are raised, so there's the next best thing.

However, playing Devil's Advocate here........

Don't break the law and you won't have to pay a fine. Right?

[Tracker]

so how does that help the whole damned if you do, damned if you dont situation i got caught up in

i even referenced the Law i was sited under, and of the 4 facets, 3 of them had more to do with maintaining a safe a reasonable speed, and direction and one that listed traveling at the posted speed

some devils advocate right back at you :D

Tracker

[sandfreestyle]

I agree that if you don't break the law you don't have to worry about anything. But what happens when the people "enforcing" the law are the biggest violators of it aswell? I have countless photos and eyewitness accounts of cops on a cell while driving, making illegal turns, freeway speed violations, carpool violations, running lights and stop signs, etc. What happens to them? I've tried doing something about it a few times and all I got was a "There's nothing we can do."

[druid]

so how does that help the whole damned if you do, damned if you dont situation i got caught up in

i even referenced the Law i was sited under, and of the 4 facets, 3 of them had more to do with maintaining a safe a reasonable speed, and direction and one that listed traveling at the posted speed

some devils advocate right back at you :D

Tracker

You were moving with the flow of traffic....not at the posted speed limit. You, as much as everyone else [including Speed Racer] were "ripe for the picking" and it happened to be you.

"Safety" starts with the speed limit.

Not being an °°° but that's about all there is to it.

[Tracker]

i dont think your being an °°°

just starts to fall into that area of "enforcing a law thats un-enforceable"

my only other option would be, to follow the speed limit, but, that would make me an obstruction to the flow of traffic, which is also a ticket-able offense

now dont get me wrong, i made peace with myself over this awhile ago, but ill probably have a long memory about the double standard of the whole incident..

Tracker

[druid]

i dont think your being an °°°

just starts to fall into that area of "enforcing a law thats un-enforceable"

my only other option would be, to follow the speed limit, but, that would make me an obstruction to the flow of traffic, which is also a ticket-able offense

now dont get me wrong, i made peace with myself over this awhile ago, but ill probably have a long memory about the double standard of the whole incident..

Tracker

@ unenforceable -
Hrmmm...got a ticket, right? I'd say it got enforced .
[serious mode on]The problem seems to be more that people get °°°°ed off because they happen to think they were 'singled out' of a group doing the same thing. Well, that's the luck of the draw. The officer can only pull over one...unless there's a roadblock or "blitz" in place.
Question: Would you feel better or worse about it if a traffic camera caught you and you got the ticket in the mail?

@ obstruction - during a traffic encounter, 'obstruction' is defined as something stopped or stopping traffic. So long as you are moving within < 10mph less than posted speed, you are not an obstruction...and that excludes inclement weather. If moving slower than the 10mph, you are supposed to use your 4-way flashers and then get off the roadway as quickly as possible [shoulder or center grass divider].

--------------

@ sandfreestyle - "I agree that if you don't break the law you don't have to worry about anything. But what happens when the people "enforcing" the law are the biggest violators of it aswell? I have countless photos and eyewitness accounts of cops on a cell while driving, making illegal turns, freeway speed violations, carpool violations, running lights and stop signs, etc. What happens to them? I've tried doing something about it a few times and all I got was a "There's nothing we can do."

Who did you turn that information in to? The Police Chief? Their Internal Affairs division? The Mayor? City Council? Your attorney? State Police? The Department of Justice? A Judge [or all the magistrates] in the district?

[sandfreestyle]

I've gone to the supervisors, written to the city with proof, CEO of the hospital of where they are stationed (my mom knows the person), I would the mayor if he wasn't being a hypocrite himself (LONG story there), DMV, etc. If I got an answer at all it was along the lines of "we'll look into it" or "sorry, but that's not my area."

[Tracker]

@ unenforceable -
Hrmmm...got a ticket, right? I'd say it got enforced .
[serious mode on]The problem seems to be more that people get °°°°ed off because they happen to think they were 'singled out' of a group doing the same thing. Well, that's the luck of the draw. The officer can only pull over one...unless there's a roadblock or "blitz" in place.
Question: Would you feel better or worse about it if a traffic camera caught you and you got the ticket in the mail?

@ obstruction - during a traffic encounter, 'obstruction' is defined as something stopped or stopping traffic. So long as you are moving within < 10mph less than posted speed, you are not an obstruction...and that excludes inclement weather. If moving slower than the 10mph, you are supposed to use your 4-way flashers and then get off the roadway as quickly as possible [shoulder or center grass divider].

oh, i know i was singled out, as i drive a red sports car.. but that doesnt make it right

as for the camera, id wouldve rather had that..hell at least that way the roughly 200,000+* cars that drive that same stretch of road per day will all be getting screwed equally

*half mil was a bad number, between 200 thou and a quarter million is about right as per 2009 data

Tracker

[skinnyfatguy]

A few months ago I was pulled over for doing 23 MPH in a school zone which was 20 MPH. It was about 8 in the morning driving east on the first day of school and I missed the blinking yellow light because of the sun. I was able to get the points reduced down to 1 but fine stayed at $240 and I had to pay an extra $25 in court costs.

Another situation I saw was signs indicating a construction zone on a highway near me. I didn't see one orange cone, one piece of equipment, nothing. The only thing I saw was a cop sitting with his radar gun looking to nail people people for speeding. Gotta love speeds being reduced by 20 MPH for no other apparent reason than to allow cops to collect double on their tickets. Thankfully I had slowed to below the reduced speed on that one.

[Chris]

I generally believe that speed limits are arbitrarily set in order to generate revenue. Beyond that, if speed limits were truly set for safety, police officers charged with enforcing the limits would do everything in their power to make themselves VISIBLE while sitting in a speed trap...we all know that regardless of how fast you are going, your first instinct upon seeing a cop is to slow down, possibly by slamming on the brakes. Nevermind the fact that slamming on the brakes while on the freeway is completely unsafe...

The last time I got pulled over was on I-680. Traffic was moving along at a decent 65ish, except for a cluster which I got caught in. This group of cars was doing about 45mph, the reason...a CHP officer in the left lane. I noticed that every single person was fixated on the cop, and not paying one bit of attention to anything else on the road. Now, I drive a rather small car, one which people have enough difficulty seeing when they are actually paying attention. I also refuse to be caught up in an accident just waiting to happen when people fail to pay attention. So, I signaled, went between a few cars and got out of the cluster of idiots. No sooner had I left the group of cars, accelerated to 65-70 and coasted to the next group of traffic, and the CHP was weaving in and out, lights flashing to chase me down. Obviously I got pulled over, and was told that I obviously didn't notice that the cop was 'back there'. I politely told the officer "No, you were in the #1 lane, doing about 45, and all the cars around me were paying so much attention to you, that I wanted to get away from that accident before it happened." The officer then asked how fast I was going, I told him the truth, I didnt look at my speedometer, but I probably got up to 65-70 before I shifted into third, at which point I let off the gas. This elicited the response of "Well, I had to do 100 to catch you". Wisely I said nothing, although I felt like pointing out that he would need to go faster than me in order to catch me...

Long story short, after telling the cop what I was doing, and why I did it...I was let go with a warning.

The biggest scam around here is in San Francisco though, if you have out of state plates, you better watch out. If they catch you with them for more than 30 days, your car gets impounded. That day cost me $1,000.

[hill160881]

The point about the traffic police is that they make an innocent person feel uneasy for no reason at all. I mean i need proof of registration when the cop already looked that info up before approaching the vehicle. he knows if its reg is current and who owns the car. Another pointless ticket just like proof of insurance. I can make up a fake insurance card in ten min or maybe i canceled the plan after i got the cards that are good for up to a year.

Ya tickets are out of control like all the taxes we pay on cars. Why does a state get to collect taxes on an item sold in used condition. Like a used car, i dont pay taxes on a lawn mower i got at a garage sale. They got there money when the car was new just like with all other used items. Am i supposed to keep track of what i buy second hand and pay taxes on that to.

Now i will get to yearly registration, fine if you use the auto in question. But why do i have to pay to store it(non operation). It is like paying rent to simply own it. The point is you dont really own your car the state does, you simply rent it from them and if for what ever reason you dont pay your rent they will cancel the tags and you can not use it until the fees are paid. If not paid, and if they find it in public view they will take it. And dont say that the reg fees pay for our roads because there other taxes that are for that, several of them.

[druid]

The point about the traffic police is that they make an innocent person feel uneasy for no reason at all.

Not true. If you aren't doing anything wrong, you have no reason to "feel uneasy." If you do, then it's all you.

I mean i need proof of registration when the cop already looked that info up before approaching the vehicle. he knows if its reg is current and who owns the car.

That's not the point. You are supposed to have the physical registration with that vehicle at all times...either in the car or on your person.

Another pointless ticket just like proof of insurance. I can make up a fake insurance card in ten min or maybe i canceled the plan after i got the cards that are good for up to a year.
See how far that gets you.If you don't "code" it properly, they will know for sure...and most cards [here, anyway] are quarterly cards. You get your new ones in the mail [at least I do].

Ya tickets are out of control like all the taxes we pay on cars. Why does a state get to collect taxes on an item sold in used condition. Like a used car, i dont pay taxes on a lawn mower i got at a garage sale. They got there money when the car was new just like with all other used items. Am i supposed to keep track of what i buy second hand and pay taxes on that to.

Now i will get to yearly registration, fine if you use the auto in question. But why do i have to pay to store it(non operation).

You don't in this state but I can't speak for yours. Here, you don't have to register a disabled vehicle but it CAN'T be parked on any public road way. You will have to store it ON private property.

It is like paying rent to simply own it. The point is you dont really own your car the state does, you simply rent it from them and if for what ever reason you dont pay your rent they will cancel the tags and you can not use it until the fees are paid. If not paid, and if they find it in public view they will take it. And dont say that the reg fees pay for our roads because there other taxes that are for that, several of them.

Owning a car isn't a right, it's a privilege.

It's alarming how so many people want everything for nothing....

[hill160881]

Then why do most hit there brakes even when they are not speeding. Yep even you do it. Spend some time riding along with a traffic cop and you will understand my point. It is called the perfect driver syndrome. Once a cop is seen all drivers become perfect drivers.

I thought my tag and the sticker on it were physical proof enough. Why do i need another one in paper form, when it came with the sticker on your plate. They run your plates and see if it is currently registered before they approach the car. It is a BS law that goes back to before wireless communication, but it generates revenue so lets keep it. :wthumpup:

My insurance cards are good for a year. And back when i was in-between insurance companies my old useless card worked just fine even when the policy was canceled. They dont call the company to see if it is still good.

I should not have to pay for my rights, just not screw up and loose them. I should not pay for the privilege of owning a car over and over again. I bought it, paid the bull°°°° taxes on it that were paid when it was new, registered it. I have a valid license and pay gas taxes like anyone who drives. Why should i pay again, and again.

[Chris]

Druid, the way the laws are written, the paper is meaningless. As an example, your drivers license can be revoked, yet you may still have the plastic card in your possession. When you present it, the cops check, and you are charged for driving without a license.

If I don't carry my plastic card (but I do have my DL# memorized), the cops still cite me for driving without a license instead of verifying that I do indeed have one. It is perfect BS, damned if you do, damned if you dont.

Yes, you SHOULD keep the stupid plastic card with you, but if you loose it, you shouldn't be given a ticket when all the cop needed to do was verify the information you provided him...and check it on the damn computer sitting in his front seat.

[druid]

Then why do most hit there brakes even when they are not speeding. Yep even you do it.
No I don't. If I'm not speeding and there are no morons in front of me hitting the brakes [causing ME to also] I don't have to and I know it. So long as I remain within the law, they can do whatever they want while I'm chucking right along ignoring them.
Spend some time riding along with a traffic cop and you will understand my point. It is called the perfect driver syndrome. Once a cop is seen all drivers become perfect drivers.
Um...I don't have to...:wink:
I thought my tag and the sticker on it were physical proof enough. Why do i need another one in paper form, when it came with the sticker on your plate. They run your plates and see if it is currently registered before they approach the car. It is a BS law that goes back to before wireless communication, but it generates revenue so lets keep it. :wthumpup:
I understand your point but it's moot. Until the law is changed, that's the way it is.
My insurance cards are good for a year. And back when i was in-between insurance companies my old useless card worked just fine even when the policy was canceled. They dont call the company to see if it is still good.
Wow.....just wow...because they do here.
I should not have to pay for my rights, just not screw up and loose them.
You aren't paying for your rights, you are paying for a privilege. Where does it say you have an inalienable right to drive or own a vehicle?
I should not pay for the privilege of owning a car over and over again. I bought it, paid the bull°°°° taxes on it that were paid when it was new, registered it. I have a valid license and pay gas taxes like anyone who drives. Why should i pay again, and again.

To continue that privelage. Look, I'm not saying you are wrong...I'm saying that this 'is the way it is." If you feel so strongly about it, go on a political drive to change it. Bring a class action lawsuit in the name of every legally licensed driver and car owner in the country. It WILL garner National attention and perhaps help you in your cause.

...but to sit somewhere and complain about something and do nothing about it, is only perpetuating the problem. You aren't helping your cause so why complain about it, you know?


Druid, the way the laws are written, the paper is meaningless. As an example, your drivers license can be revoked, yet you may still have the plastic card in your possession. When you present it, the cops check, and you are charged for driving without a license.

Like I said before, that might be in your case but here that 'plastic card" is confiscated if you are pulled over, present it and it comes back "suspended."
Let's not forget that it's a State document of who you are...AND...that you are 'licensed" to drive in that state. It's more about identifying your face to a name, along with 'general' characteristics of your stature...height, weight, eye color and blood type [in some instances and in case of your unresponsive need for it]. It's got more to it than just "hey, I'm licensed to drive."


If I don't carry my plastic card (but I do have my DL# memorized), the cops still cite me for driving without a license instead of verifying that I do indeed have one. It is perfect BS, damned if you do, damned if you dont.

Again, it's about identification.
cop: your name is?
you: John Q public
cop: prove it
you: um.......

Never mind that you could be some wanted individual who just stole that car from you'r victim [of whom you knew his name] or whatever....

Yes, you SHOULD keep the stupid plastic card with you, but if you loose it, you shouldn't be given a ticket when all the cop needed to do was verify the information you provided him...and check it on the damn computer sitting in his front seat.

You should be more responsible than that.

Stolen on the other hand, you SHOULD have a police report handy to prove you reported it.

OR......

Do what I do and order 2 at the DMV. Keep one in your wallet and keep one at home IN CASE you lose it/got stolen.

You know...I'm sitting here staring at my monitor and I'm remembering all the conversations we have on this [and BigE] forum. I have to tell you [and I'm not trying to be insulting here, even though it might seem that way]........

I can't help but think 'what a bunch of babies.'

I mean think about it from someone else' standpoint....

"I shouldn't have to pay taxes"
"I shouldn't have to obey laws I don't like"
"I should be able to get stoned whenever I like"
"I shouldn't have to pay for __________"
"I should be entitled to ___________"

...see a trend here? I do......

I mean...my God....
Is there ANYTHING you guys don't complain about? Do you ever have anything GOOD to say about anything [outside of paintball?]? I work in a prison for crying out loud. I think that I happen to have more to complain about than you guys, yet I don't [at least, nowhere NEAR as often].
I've been married to the same woman for 24 years and have 3 daughters [21 and under] from that same person....and even I don't get this much complaining under my one roof...

[sandfreestyle]

I wasn't really getting at the point that tickets shouldn't be given at all, I was more saying that the costs for those tickets are way outragous. I also want to ask, where is the common curtisy in some cases? Like the front liscense plates for example. A friendly warning would be nice. And also some car dealerships don't sell their cars with the plates on because it looks tacky ie. BMW, Merceds, Lexus, pretty much all upper model cars.

I'm all for enforcing the law but selecting which laws to enforce is crazy. I mean it is ILLEGAL to water your yards between 8am and 6pm because those are peak hours more then twice a week to save water. Yet look at the homes of the people who made that a law, they are watering their yards 4 times a week at 330 in the afternoon. Where is the law enforcement there? Yes people have asked before and tried to do something about it but all it got was, "Oh my system was out of wack."

Back to why I started this thread. I'm not saying the ticket itself is wack, just the increased fines and selective enforcement of the tickets is wack.

[hill160881]

If laws dont change with the time then screw them and the politicians that wont change them. ITS THE LAW is like i was just following orders. And that is no defense even in the military. Its the law is something an ignorant adult tells someone to make then selves feel good about following a pointless law. Saying ITS THE LAW is like saying if you dont like the law then change it, like that is even possible in our system. No it is not, but the elusion of a system that can be changed by its citizens is what the government wants. Go ahead and see how far your one vote gets you on changing that law.Its your constitutional DUTY to resist infractions on your freedoms and this is one of them. Call your congressman and leave a message he wont listen to or do anything about.


And if you are wondering where it says i have the right to ............. its in the constitution. Again if i screw up then i forfeit my right to operate an auto but other wise... Again I have a valid license and i payed for my car, so i have done what i am supposed to to own/operate my car. So why is paying BS tickets and yearly fees, part of the privlage of owning a car. O right, the government MADE it a privilege for my own protection. Got to love that fear, it is a very effective tool for the government to twist when they are taking our freedoms away for financial gain it prevents most people form realizing what they lost because they feel safe.

When the auto first came out there were not these laws but the government saw a way to make gobs of money, using our safety as an excuse, and now we have all the laws to make money of of peoples need to travel. The government has made free travel basically illegal or at the very least a hassel. So without a car, buss or plane you are stuck in your home town. You have to check which roads allow cyclist and runners/walkers. most intestates do not allow them, or hitch hiking. You have to travel on the roadways even when walking because you mite trespass.

I have said this before, if a law protects no one then why is it there. Other than to generate revenue.



I agree with the main theme of the thread about tickets going up in severity, but it goes much further than that

[sandfreestyle]

Just like it's a consitutional right that we as the people can stand up and over take our own government if we want to, but yet everytime someone trys to start something they are dubed a traitor and sent to Guantanamo.

Some very interesting points by everyone. Makes me think from both sides of things. Keep it going.

[xero28]

Like the front liscense plates for example. A friendly warning would be nice. And also some car dealerships don't sell their cars with the plates on because it looks tacky ie. BMW, Merceds, Lexus, pretty much all upper model cars.


I'm not going to get too much into the discussion here. Fortunately the most I've ever received is a parking ticket (knock on wood), so I honestly don't have too much to complain about and I do know a couple of CHP officers, one of whom might (or might not) have some things to say.

Anyway, about the license plates and stuff (really funny that I had a car for 5 years without a front license plate, and the only place I ever got pulled over for it was Washington state, didn't get a ticket though). The dealers know that it is illegal to have cars with no front license plates, or tinted glass in the front windows, or modified taillights, etc., but they don't care, because they are not the ones getting the tickets. They are only there to sell the cars and leave it up to the new owners to adhere to the law. The problem is that most of the time the owners don't even know it's illegal. They figure, "If I was sold the car in this condition, then everything must be up to snuff." Unfortunately, not always the case.

:twocents: for now.

[hill160881]

Have you ever wondered why everything political is split 50 50 or close to it. The politicians plan everything they do to keep it this way. It keeps the people of this country from becoming one voice. That is why everything political splits the country in half, so we dont rise up. If we are to bussy arguing over who is right and wrong we will never work together.

Divided and we are week but united we are strong. Think the ones in power know this?

[sandfreestyle]

That's a double edge sword though. A dealer is not allowed to sell a car if it is not 100% within the law. Things like privacy glass on front windows, black tail and headlights, no front licsence plate, performance exhaust (in CA all exhaust need to meet CARB approval not just EPA, most haven't even been submitted for approval), emission contols, etc. Yes they will break the law if it means they make a buck or two, but where are the tickets for those dealerships?

Used cars are the same. I cannot by law sell you a car that I own if it is not SMOG approved with documentation at time of sale. Yet it happens everyday. What about used dealerships? Lemon laws "protect" the buyer from stuff but that's only for 30 days. If the engine blows up on day 31 because the dealer put saw dust in the oil to keep it from making noise (yes I've seen this happen) then you are SOL because it's after 30 days. Even if it were day 20 the dealer still drags out the process to try and get past the 30 days so they don't have to deal with it. Where are the tickets for those people?

[xero28]

That's a double edge sword though. A dealer is not allowed to sell a car if it is not 100% within the law. Things like privacy glass on front windows, black tail and headlights, no front licsence plate, performance exhaust (in CA all exhaust need to meet CARB approval not just EPA, most haven't even been submitted for approval), emission contols, etc. Yes they will break the law if it means they make a buck or two, but where are the tickets for those dealerships?

Used cars are the same. I cannot by law sell you a car that I own if it is not SMOG approved with documentation at time of sale. Yet it happens everyday. What about used dealerships? Lemon laws "protect" the buyer from stuff but that's only for 30 days. If the engine blows up on day 31 because the dealer put saw dust in the oil to keep it from making noise (yes I've seen this happen) then you are SOL because it's after 30 days. Even if it were day 20 the dealer still drags out the process to try and get past the 30 days so they don't have to deal with it. Where are the tickets for those people?

100% agree. I think the dealers should be held responsible for these things and cited when found breaking the law selling cars like that.

[sandfreestyle]

100% agree. I think the dealers should be held responsible for these things and cited when found breaking the law selling cars like that.

A funny example of this has to be Hammer Toyota in Mission Hills. One of biggest Toyota dealerships in the state, maybe country, has a lot of vehicle violations on their cars (windows, lights, exhaust, air intakes, etc). Funniest part is their is a major police station right across the street. Like they can wave to each other through the windows and visit at the gas station separating them.

[druid]

I wasn't really getting at the point that tickets shouldn't be given at all, I was more saying that the costs for those tickets are way outragous.

OK, I get that but from another point of view, consider this:

As a child growing up, your parent[s] have been telling you "don't hit girls."

You are smacking your sister and your parent says [calmly] "stop that." you don't stop. They say it again, a little louder now. You still continue. Your parent then cracks you good and now you don't smack her any more.

OR

The notion that "prison isn't [supposed to be] punishment for a crime." - yes, I'm dealing with that mentality right now, from our inmate-lover administration. So instead of making the prison system the most horrid place to be [thus, vowing never to return]...it's a giant day care that gives FELONS pencils, pens, scissors, pizza parties, flat screens and all that other BS they SHOULDN'T be getting. You tell me....where is the incentive to stay OUT of prison in this setting?

Fines are supposed to be that coercive act that keeps a society "in line." Don't drive 110mph in a 35 zone and you won't get a $2k fine and 8 points on your license.

I also want to ask, where is the common curtisy in some cases? Like the front liscense plates for example. A friendly warning would be nice. And also some car dealerships don't sell their cars with the plates on because it looks tacky ie. BMW, Merceds, Lexus, pretty much all upper model cars.


What do you mean by "common courtesy?" Do you mean like a "faulty equipment slip?" We get those here, most often for an out tail light, plate light, etc.

PA doesn't use front license plates but Jersey does. I can't really comment on why they do it but I would submit the idea that police can see the identification on front or back when looking for a particular vehicle. Overall, Jersey has a larger crime rate than PA. I can only theorize that this is in part, the reason for dual plates. I would agree that it does seem to be a 'funding generator' though...outside my own idea on why they would require dualies. Since the dual plates is a widely known law, there's no reason to believe that someone "didn't know" and in fact, is a driver's responsibility to make sure their vehicle is in compliance with all state and local laws.

Example: Loud exhausts.
PA has a law that requires the exhaust to be under a certain Db [I can't remember what that level is though]. Mufflers are required and Glass packs and Cherry Bombs meet that requirement. Open pipes are illegal.

However, one town over from me has a more restrictive noise ordinance than my town. When I drove my duded-out 72 Nova through there [and NOT ripping into the gas pedal]...I was pulled over and cited for violating their noise ordinance. I took it to court [Magistrate] and lost. The city has the right to enact laws for the betterment of their community, so long as the State Law is not violated or circumvented.

I showed a video of a Harley traveling through their town, by my estimate, at 4x's the volume my car was, right past a police officer and was not stopped. The ordinance makes allowances for bikes because the design of the mufflers are such that, they are intended to be heard. Had something to do with 'drivers not seeing bikes until after crushing them in an accident.'

Lesson?

1. Don't drive that Nova through that town
2. Spend $30K [that I don't have] on a nice Harley
3. Drive a quieter car through the town
4. Don't drive through that town at all.



I'm all for enforcing the law but selecting which laws to enforce is crazy. I mean it is ILLEGAL to water your yards between 8am and 6pm because those are peak hours more then twice a week to save water. Yet look at the homes of the people who made that a law, they are watering their yards 4 times a week at 330 in the afternoon. Where is the law enforcement there? Yes people have asked before and tried to do something about it but all it got was, "Oh my system was out of wack."

That seems more like a local ordinance than a "law".......unless you are in a naturally arid State where it might BE a law...or from a more temperate state that is in a drought emergency.
Report them and make yourself a pain in the °°° to law enforcement. Use any citations you or your family got as the basis of your complaint.

and then...get it all on film. If the officers don't do their job, take that to a city council meeting.

Back to why I started this thread. I'm not saying the ticket itself is wack, just the increased fines and selective enforcement of the tickets is wack.

If laws dont change with the time then screw them and the politicians that wont change them.

Change the politicians. The problem is that they often don't do what YOU want either.

ITS THE LAW is like i was just following orders. And that is no defense even in the military. Its the law is something an ignorant adult tells someone to make then selves feel good about following a pointless law. Saying ITS THE LAW is like saying if you dont like the law then change it, like that is even possible in our system.

It IS possible. I never said it was EASY.

No it is not, but the elusion of a system that can be changed by its citizens is what the government wants. Go ahead and see how far your one vote gets you on changing that law. Its your constitutional DUTY to resist infractions on your freedoms and this is one of them. Call your congressman and leave a message he wont listen to or do anything about.

::headslap:: here we go again......

And if you are wondering where it says i have the right to ............. its in the constitution.

I have a copy of the Constitution on my wall. You show me where it says in there, that you have the Constitutional Right to drive or the Constitutional Right to Impinge MY Rights because you got stoned and ran your truck into my front porch.

...or get stoned at all.

Again if i screw up then i forfeit my right to operate an auto but other wise... Again I have a valid license and i payed for my car, so i have done what i am supposed to to own/operate my car. So why is paying BS tickets and yearly fees, part of the privlage of owning a car. O right, the government MADE it a privilege for my own protection.

No. They made it a privilege for everyone ELSE' protection.

Got to love that fear, it is a very effective tool for the government to twist when they are taking our freedoms away for financial gain it prevents most people form realizing what they lost because they feel safe.

...Just like people are tired of being captives in their own homes because the ACLU considers "gang activity" an act to be defended.

When the auto first came out there were not these laws but the government saw a way to make gobs of money,

To replace dirt roads with pavement

using our safety as an excuse,

To install traffic signals, enact speed limits and inspection requirements to keep everyone [especially pedestrians] safe

and now we have all the laws to make money of of peoples need to travel. The government has made free travel basically illegal or at the very least a hassel. So without a car, buss or plane you are stuck in your home town. You have to check which roads allow cyclist and runners/walkers. most intestates do not allow them, or hitch hiking. You have to travel on the roadways even when walking because you mite trespass.

Example of what I said earlier.

Awww......you are breaking my heart. Is your job right next door or do you have to travel? If it's such a hassle for you then move.

I have said this before, if a law protects no one then why is it there. Other than to generate revenue.

It protects someone...[perhaps] just not you....but here's the kicker....you don't care BECAUSE it doesn't affect you and THEREFORE...have an issue with it.

I agree with the main theme of the thread about tickets going up in severity, but it goes much further than that

Yeah...far be it from the government to tell you what you can't do...or make it so oppressive you don't WANT to pay the consequences.

Just like it's a consitutional right that we as the people can stand up and over take our own government if we want to, but yet everytime someone trys to start something they are dubed a traitor and sent to Guantanamo.

That's because they went about it the wrong way. Pull a gun out in a store to look at it because you "want to make sure the safety is on" and get shot by a cop who thinks you are trying to rob the place.

Some very interesting points by everyone. Makes me think from both sides of things. Keep it going.

As you can see, I have a real problem with the "I love lawlessness" attitude. They are what keeps most of us safe[r]. The opposite is is anarchy...the idea that no one has to answer to anyone else for what they do.

People are never happy with what they have and want more for absolute nothing.

They don't give a °°°° about anyone but themselves and what "they can't do."

They whine about taxes and fines but drive 40 miles to work every day on roads built for them to do so.

They cry because getting stone is illegal, until some truck driver crashes his tanker of Isocyanate, medical waste, radioactive material or Hell - sanitation waste - in their neighbor hood...

...or some 17 year old retard who watched a you tube on how to "Drift" and thinking he's the next Kyle Petty, crashes into a school bus killing thirty 9 year olds.....

Yeah....I have no sympathy for any of that.

[sandfreestyle]

That's because they went about it the wrong way. Pull a gun out in a store to look at it because you "want to make sure the safety is on" and get shot by a cop who thinks you are trying to rob the place.

Where did I say anyone pulled a gun out? It's not just extreme protesting that gets it but also the peaceful protesting that gets it too.

Flip that coin a little. Here in LA there was an imigration march/protest to allow the already illegal immagrants who are living in CA to stay and become legal citizens. Over 50% of all the people there were in fact illegal immagrants (per interviews and public statements) and nothing happened to any of them even with cops all around, not to mention they didn't have a permit to have the march. Where's the law enforcement here?

[CatoRockwell]

Owning a car isn't a right, it's a privilege.

It's alarming how so many people want everything for nothing....

Wow, just wow. Want everything for nothing? Whose dollars are paying for those roads. Not the governments. They just consume they never produce. "If you haven't done anything wrong, then you have nothing to hide."

Is it just me or does this sound like something a member of the KGB or the SS would say?

I don't know why anyone bothers discussing these subjects with Druid (no offense Druid), because he clearly is a Utilitarian to the core. He isn't ignorantly stating totalitarian beliefs because he's been miseducated. He clearly deeply believes them. He's about as likely to change his view of Might equals Right as I am to change my beliefs on Individualism.

[sandfreestyle]

Lets not get into a :sstorm: please.

[Chris]

Let's get a few things straight here.

Driving is a Privilege not a right (rights can not be taken away, privileges can). We should all be able to agree on this.

The vast majority of us believe that the Government should enforce laws, but that they must do so equally across the board. This means that the °°°°ing government is not above the law that they created!!!

Most of us want laws that make sense, not ones that are created to cause confusion. We want order in society, not arbitrary meaningless BS. While Im at it, lets call a spade a spade...be honest, speed limits are generally set in order to increase revenue. The government (state in this case) will never admit that, they want to stand behind the 'higher calling' of safety. Its 100% (well 90%) bullshot.

Those of us who are calling for less Government intrusion in our lives, are also saying that we as individuals must take responsibility for our actions. Yes, Druid, this does mean that if we want to get high...have at it. But it best be done in a controlled environment, and the consequences for farking it up better be severe.

[CatoRockwell]

Driving is not a privilege.

Until taxation for the roads is an optional not mandatory, it is our right to drive. How does it make any sense that it's a privilege that we all must pay for it whether we get to use it or not?

The government only has the right to claim it's a privilege if the only ones paying for it are those "privileged" to use it.

[sandfreestyle]

Ok I can see where you're going with this Cato. I/you pay mandatory taxes that go towards the roads whether you drive or not. So say I/you can not drive due to what ever reason, then I/you should not be taxed because I am not using them. But as long as I/you are paying the taxes I/you have every right to use them. Am I correct in this?

[Tracker]

Driving is not a privilege.

i think we can all thank henry ford for this mindset

so is owning a computer and using the internet also a right?

is owning a tv and having access to cable also a right?

though i dont agree with druid on everything (as his views are a little too black and white for my tastes)

imma have to side with him on this one

Those are luxury goods my friend, and before henry ford perfected the assembly line, and got the cost of cars down to something reasonable, and thus granted THIS sense of entitlement to every person in america, cars were nothing more than luxury goods

but, its been something thats been so ingrained into the "american dream" that everyone takes it for granted, just like owning a radio was in the 20's, and owning a TV 50's, and now owning a computer, its just something that everyone has.. so at some point, luxury items somehow become entitlements

you wanna not pay for anything.. then go be homeless, those guys dont pay taxes, they dont drive cars, they dont own tv's, they dont own computers, and for the most part, people ignore them

however if you want to function in modern scociety, you gotta play the game.. its been that way since 1776

Tracker

[druid]

@ sands - I didn't say you said about "pulled a gun out." I was merely using it as an example.

@ Cato - KGB? Not even close. I do, however, believe that if you do nothing wrong then you have nothing to hide.
I also recognize the fact that, citing only one example, that people want to get away with murder, with only a slap on the wrist [literally and metaphorically speaking]...so yeah...want something for nothing. I have a drunk driver in prison right now...guilty of killing 4 people at a bus stop when he plowed his car into them...2 were under the age of 11...and this piece of °°°° thinks NOTHING of it. No remorse [until he appears before a judge BTW], no apologies for what he took away from others. He'll spend the next 80-120 years behind bars and doesn't give a rat's °°° about it, joking that "well...I don't drink anymore." What kind of piece of °°°° is this? This is what you want to increase by "relaxing the laws?"

Also, I do believe in individualism...but [apparently] not to the extent you do. I believe in being self sufficient but not when it impinges the rights of others - or violates the law.
As to the law, I also happen to believe that there are genuine reasons to HAVE that law in place.

@ sands again - Nope, no poop storm

@ Chris - Yes, driving is a privilege

http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/q-dright.html

http://www.wikilaw3k.org/forum1/Immigration/Is-Driving-a-privilege-or-civl-right-volation-is-there-any-reason-to-trust-the-open-borders-lobby-now-535790.htm

http://www.findlegaladvice.org/forum1/Law-Ethics/Is-driving-a-privilege-or-a-right-568780.htm


and yes, I agree wholeheartedly that government officials are not above the law.

And yes, I agree that as individualistic people, we would be better off BUT I also know that people are just MORONS and will never take responsibility for their actions. They already don't and that's WITH all the laws in place. Lift those bans on the things that are outlawed and you will effectively increase the prison population 10 fold. How do I know this? I get to deal with the mentality every day. they already don't give a °°°° and now...you want more people like this to do as they please. For what? A more stiff prison sentence? higher fines [the start of this whole thread, right?] they already don't give a °°°°. What makes you think that harder sentences are going to change their minds? I have a dead-beat dad in my prison who owes more than 190 THOUSAND dollars for the 4 kids from 3 different "babies momma's" that he doesn't pay for. And now you want to add more.......

and finally...

LOL...that's similar to

"Why do I have to pay school taxes when I don't have kids?"

You live in the district. You pay those taxes for the kids that DO go and the things they need.

You use the roads, whether you physically travel on them or not. You buy groceries? The trucks delivering them do. You ride a bus?

EDIT: Tracker posted before I did.

My only comment is about the "little too black and white" one...

When you allow "gray" to intercede between black and white, that's when the problems crop up. Use paintball as one example...

Player does _________.
Ref stops him.
Player says "it's NOT against the rules of the game."
Ref says "it's a gray area" or something to "it's not in the 'spirit' of the game"
Player says "doesn't matter, it's not illegal and I'm going to keep on doing ________"

Gray areas suck and leave way to much open to "interpretation." What I say, people disagree with...just as I do with them. no gray area? no more issues. It's black and white.....and easy to follow.

[CatoRockwell]

Ok I can see where you're going with this Cato. I/you pay mandatory taxes that go towards the roads whether you drive or not. So say I/you can not drive due to what ever reason, then I/you should not be taxed because I am not using them. But as long as I/you are paying the taxes I/you have every right to use them. Am I correct in this?

Exactly, we can ban people from using the road, but they no longer should have to pay taxes.

[CatoRockwell]

i think we can all thank henry ford for this mindset

so is owning a computer and using the internet also a right?

is owning a tv and having access to cable also a right?

though i dont agree with druid on everything (as his views are a little too black and white for my tastes)

imma have to side with him on this one

Those are luxury goods my friend, and before henry ford perfected the assembly line, and got the cost of cars down to something reasonable, and thus granted THIS sense of entitlement to every person in america, cars were nothing more than luxury goods

but, its been something thats been so ingrained into the "american dream" that everyone takes it for granted, just like owning a radio was in the 20's, and owning a TV 50's, and now owning a computer, its just something that everyone has.. so at some point, luxury items somehow become entitlements

you wanna not pay for anything.. then go be homeless, those guys dont pay taxes, they dont drive cars, they dont own tv's, they dont own computers, and for the most part, people ignore them

however if you want to function in modern scociety, you gotta play the game.. its been that way since 1776

Tracker

Actually, roads, canals, etc... were largely privatized in the early age of our nation. I also don't believe you had to register your horse and buggy, or have a license to drive it.

I'm not arguing that roads shouldn't have rules, quite the contrary, I just believe that it is unjust to tax someone for something they aren't allowed access to.

I am also opposed to hidden taxes, like absurd revenue streams from tickets. If someone's driving was really a danger to others, let the punishment fit the crime, suspend their license for a month. That will get traffic cops back into the right mindset, not giving the city the excuse to draw revenue. It will also be an even punishment regardless of wealth. The rich don't care as much about a $500 ticket as the poor do, but both would hate to lose their driving privileges.

Again, if you aren't allowed to drive, you shouldn't pay for it either.

As for luxury goods, are not all goods luxury? I mean, basic survival doesn't require anything but an hunter/gatherer right? Oh wait, all these are tools to help better a man's life. Who are you to determine which is a luxury and which a necessity? What if one's income is derived from driving, or using the internet?

We need to step back and stop assuming that the benevolent government is granting its subjects privileges. We are citizens, and we are what grants the government authority, not the other way around. There are no privileges granted to the citizenry. We have government merely to gather and defend our rights, and for no other reason.

[druid]

Actually, roads, canals, etc... were largely privatized in the early age of our nation. I also don't believe you had to register your horse and buggy, or have a license to drive it.

I'm not arguing that roads shouldn't have rules, quite the contrary, I just believe that it is unjust to tax someone for something they aren't allowed access to.

WHO? doesn't have access to them? Everyone does...whether they drive their own vehicles or rid a bus/taxi.

Something else no one considered...
House on fire? Want someone to put it out for you? Fire engines/EMS need access to you, now don't they?

I am also opposed to hidden taxes, like absurd revenue streams from tickets. If someone's driving was really a danger to others, let the punishment fit the crime, suspend their license for a month.

People drive under suspension right now. That does absolutely nothing.

That will get traffic cops back into the right mindset, not giving the city the excuse to draw revenue.

Traffic cop = regular cop assigned to traffic detail. There's no distinction.
You know what might get the police "in the right mindset?" People stop doing the dumb °°°° so they can concentrate on the things that really matter...like trying to find the person responsible for a rape....kidnapping...a wife-hired hitman........gang activity. If people would stop being so petty, maybe something could actually get done in this Country.


It will also be an even punishment regardless of wealth. The rich don't care as much about a $500 ticket as the poor do, but both would hate to lose their driving privileges.

Again..........that doesn't stop them now so this notion is pointless.

Again, if you aren't allowed to drive, you shouldn't pay for it either.

As for luxury goods, are not all goods luxury? I mean, basic survival doesn't require anything but an hunter/gatherer right? Oh wait, all these are tools to help better a man's life. Who are you to determine which is a luxury and which a necessity? What if one's income is derived from driving, or using the internet?

Tax it's usage :D

just kidding...

Luxury as defined by dictionary.com:
a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity

Necessity:
something necessary or indispensable: food, shelter, and other necessities of life


therefore, if you don't "need it" it's not a necessity. What did people do before there was an internet and paved roads?
They hiked or drove in mud....and actually had to work for a living by GOING to a library for research [or to the job for their work].

We need to step back and stop assuming that the benevolent government is granting its subjects privileges. We are citizens, and we are what grants the government authority, not the other way around. There are no privileges granted to the citizenry. We have government merely to gather and defend our rights, and for no other reason.

And how do they do that without roads? Taxes? A paid military? Public Schools/education?

None of this is free. Where do you think it comes from?

[Chris]

Exactly, we can ban people from using the road, but they no longer should have to pay taxes.

Not a bad idea, bit that would make driving a privilege. Remember, rights can not be taken away.

[CatoRockwell]

Not a bad idea, bit that would make driving a privilege. Remember, rights can not be taken away.

I never said driving was on another's property (or publicly contributed property) was a right. I just don't believe that it is right to charge people for something they aren't allowed access to. If someone else is driving you (i.e. carpool, bus, etc...) they are paying taxes for using the road. If you aren't allowed full access they don't have the right to charge you.

Realistically speaking, I believe all things should be privatized. That however, is an entirely different argument and and I don't want to derail the thread.

The point is, Driving on public roads is not a privilege (thats assuming the government is gifting us something) it is a paid for service (our taxes paid for the road, the government did nothing but facilitate something we paid for). If I am not allowed to use the said service, I should not be paying for it.

[druid]

I never said driving was on another's property (or publicly contributed property) was a right. I just don't believe that it is right to charge people for something they aren't allowed access to. If someone else is driving you (i.e. carpool, bus, etc...) they are paying taxes for using the road. If you aren't allowed full access they don't have the right to charge you.

Realistically speaking, I believe all things should be privatized. That however, is an entirely different argument and and I don't want to derail the thread.

The point is, Driving on public roads is not a privilege (thats assuming the government is gifting us something) it is a paid for service (our taxes paid for the road, the government did nothing but facilitate something we paid for). If I am not allowed to use the said service, I should not be paying for it.

But you ARE allowed to use the road service...you just chose not to , such as:

1. DUI/other related traffic offense
2. Non-payment of fines or fees [severe accidents, insurance, etc]
3. Just 'not' getting your license
4. Not buying/owning a car

There are only 2 categories that adults fall into...

A - If your license was revoked for a criminal act/driving offense, you can't say "they" did it ["they are denying you the privilege]. [B]YOU did it, by some action YOU did, that caused the revocation.
---If this is the case, then take your medicine like a man/woman and quit complaining about it. [Cato...this ^^ is a "general sentiment" of mine. It's not directed at you in particular].

B - If you choose not to drive, by whatever action or inaction, that's YOUR OWN fault.
---If this is the case, remedy it and get whatever it is you need to legally operate a vehicle on a public roadway. [Again, a general sentiment].

I would submit that there's a "third" category that fits neither A or B and that would be

C - "medically denied"...and that would be those people who are denied privileges based upon some/certain medical condition they have. However, there are limits as to what will actually "deny" a person those privileges [Americans with Disabilities Act]...so that's a "questionable" category in my mind. Obviously if a person is born legally blind, they cannot drive...but an amputee has the ability to drive if the vehicle is converted to service their need[s].
IF a person fell into this 3rd category, through no fault of their own, then I could possibly agree that they [perhaps] shouldn't have to pay for roads and whatever - HOWEVER - they may still have access to public or other transportation that utilizes that road [VAST, taxi, carpool, whatever] and therefore, should help maintain those roadways they use in some way [via other means perhaps].

So one has to ask that "person" - which category did you choose to put your self in/fall into?

Anything other than category "C".........Gets no sympathy from me.

[Tracker]

ya know its funny we discuss the whole privilege vs right involving driving, and then you go and say that if you choose not to drive, thats your own fault, and you should fix it, as they will get no sympathy from you

seems kinda hypocritical doesn't it?

now i got that out of the way.. some states (like mine) use gasoline taxes and vehicle registration fees to pay for roads and projects related to transportation.
we dont have income taxes here, so our vehicle registration fees tend to be a lot higher than other states

but at least with that in mind, someone like cato knows that hes not being forced to contribute AS MUCH, if he chooses not to drive

Tracker

[CatoRockwell]

Not to derail, but all these alternate taxes are unethical. It's not right to tax citizens on multiple levels. I personally feel that the only kind of tax that is completely blind and ethical is a flat sales tax on all services.

Back to the subject at hand. 1. I've never had a DUI, I've never had my license suspended or revoked, and I've only had 1 traffic ticket in 5 years.

That said, I don't see how it is ethical to use lowered speed limits, and profiling as an opportunity to draw revenue for a city/state that can't live within its budget.

I obey the law, I don't agree with it, but I obey it. For the time being it's better to have a positive influence and help change things from within the system. The first step is recognizing our sovereignty as individuals and that we are not subjects.

[Tracker]

.

That said, I don't see how it is ethical to use lowered speed limits, and profiling as an opportunity to draw revenue for a city/state that can't live within its budget.

you ever wanna see REAL profiling.. drive a red sports car ;)

Tracker

[druid]

ya know its funny we discuss the whole privilege vs right involving driving, and then you go and say that if you choose not to drive, thats your own fault, and you should fix it, as they will get no sympathy from you

seems kinda hypocritical doesn't it?

Why or how is that hypocritical? If a person chooses not to drive but utilizes the road via other means, they should still help pay for a road they use via that "other means."

AND they get no sympathy from me for having to pay for a road they use but don't necessarily drive on.



now i got that out of the way.. some states (like mine) use gasoline taxes and vehicle registration fees to pay for roads and projects related to transportation.
we dont have income taxes here, so our vehicle registration fees tend to be a lot higher than other states

but at least with that in mind, someone like cato knows that hes not being forced to contribute AS MUCH, if he chooses not to drive

Tracker

I'm not at all against that either but remember also, that person who chooses not to drive themselves, will end up paying for it in the means they DO use...such as Taxis, busses and similar. They will simply increase their fees to compensate for you..
The lesson in it is that "you are going to pay, somehow some way."

Not to derail, but all these alternate taxes are unethical. It's not right to tax citizens on multiple levels. I personally feel that the only kind of tax that is completely blind and ethical is a flat sales tax on all services.

The problem with that is "one group" might pay too much and another "group" would pay less than they should.

The "poor" families [or those on the brink] might get devastated paying a "flat tax" because it might be more than what they pay now.

On the flip side, the "rich" may end up paying less than they do now.

If you are going to "flat tax" everyone, then no one can be exempt.


Back to the subject at hand. 1. I've never had a DUI, I've never had my license suspended or revoked, and I've only had 1 traffic ticket in 5 years.

That said, I don't see how it is ethical to use lowered speed limits, and profiling as an opportunity to draw revenue for a city/state that can't live within its budget.

Lowered speed limits keep people from using their flawed judgements to do what they want. Read my entry on "drifting" some posts ago. in a sort of "environmental 'emo" sort of way...it also helps the environment by causing less consumption of natural resources.
-------note: I don't happen to believe this either but some dolt would.

And as it pertains to traffic stops - Profiling is illegal with the exception of gathering data to produce statistical 'trends.'

If you can PROVE profiling, then you have an awesome law suit on your hands.



I obey the law, I don't agree with it, but I obey it. For the time being it's better to have a positive influence and help change things from within the system. The first step is recognizing our sovereignty as individuals and that we are not subjects.

Why don't I see you on TV during election season? In fact...why don't I see or hear ANY of this drivel during campaigns?

Because the ideas are not as "mainstream" as you think they are [or hope them to be].