Level 10...can it be improved upon?

[RogueFactor]

Or is it perfect as it is?

What are your opinions of it? Good, bad, or otherwise.

[Prezents]

Bring it down to the main parts needed.

I think that I have about a dozen springs and carriers and shims. I will never use them. Every lvl 10 I have set up I use the same...

Just my 2 cents.

This evolved from a phone conversation with Rogue. I sat back and looked at all my stuff and same carrier and spring were used on all.

K.I.S.S.
KEEP
IT
SIMPLE
STUPID

[insixdays777]

I would not change a thing...I shot my ULE mag an entire year...20 cases...not a single freakn chop!:) (sold it, DOH...I just got back to AGD a month ago! I will never leave again)

I like the shims, carriers, springs...that is one think I like about mags...you can TINKER!

[CHRONOBREAK]

its great..i guess

i dont mind the setting it up and the extra parts, even if you dont use them it cant hurt to have them

my one gripe is the reset time, when you pinch a ball the reset time is probly 2-3x longer to stop the bolt, let it vent and reset as opposed to a normal cycle

not sure if i am setting soemthing up wrong but with 3 level 10's the results were always similar with different setups

[warbeak2099]

Gas efficiency. I wish someone would make a bolt for mags that gets better efficiency. OH HAI ROGUE DIDN'T NOTICE U THAR!

[punkncat]

Gas efficiency. I wish someone would make a bolt for mags that gets better efficiency.

Beat me to it.
Lvl 7 gets very reasonable gas consumption and then you have LX that makes the last 700 or so PSI good for nothing.....
Such a nice idea though, no batteries, no chops, no problem.

[Dark Side]

Beat me to it.
Lvl 7 gets very reasonable gas consumption and then you have LX that makes the last 700 or so PSI good for nothing.....
Such a nice idea though, no batteries, no chops, no problem.


Working on designing a hybrid.

[warbeak2099]

I just would love a ULE bolt for my mag with eyes. If I could shoot to around 300-400psi I'd be happy.

[mongoose]

I'd say other then gas use, it's perfect and does its job

[warbeak2099]

I guess no one noticed but I was alluding to the ULE bolt Rogue was talking about a while back. I want one, I want it now!

[BigEvil]

I wish I was able to actually make some of the things that I come up with...

How about a new power tube / bolt combo with a larger (Fatter) bolt stem. Larger = more surface area for the air to work on. Theoretically meaning less pressure to overcome the main spring. Don't know how that would effect the operation of the gun... but it wouldnt be easy to make.

[warbeak2099]

Son of a biscuit eating bulldog that would be great. These are the things AGD needs to do to revamp their line. Just like Orange, NDZ, and everyone's cousin are making aftermarket "HE" bolts, we need one for the mag.

[Dark Side]

I wish I was able to actually make some of the things that I come up with...

How about a new power tube / bolt combo with a larger (Fatter) bolt stem. Larger = more surface area for the air to work on. Theoretically meaning less pressure to overcome the main spring. Don't know how that would effect the operation of the gun... but it wouldnt be easy to make.

That's pretty much what I was working on. A progressive rate spring would help to.

[RogueFactor]

Son of a biscuit eating bulldog that would be great. These are the things AGD needs to do to revamp their line. Just like Orange, NDZ, and everyone's cousin are making aftermarket "HE" bolts, we need one for the mag.
I guess no one noticed but I was alluding to the ULE bolt Rogue was talking about a while back. I want one, I want it now!

Now you know why you havent seen the ULE bolt, even though its results were promising. A lighter bolt alone is not the simple fix it appears to be.

Once you change one thing, it effects another whole set of systems in the valve. As BigE says, its not easy to make. This isnt tinker-type stuff like it was back in the 80's and 90's.

Youve got real smart guys like Colin @ DeadlyWind who apply scientific methods to creating products now. The beauty is, the market is moving towards products that REALLY work. Not just hyped up marketing gimmicks.

[warbeak2099]

Wait so no ULE bolt? *whimper / tear*

I mean, it wouldn't have to be an ultralight bolt. Just something designed for better efficiency.

[RogueFactor]

Wait so no ULE bolt? *whimper / tear*

I mean, it wouldn't have to be an ultralight bolt. Just something designed for better efficiency.

To design something for better efficiency out of the mag valve requires more than a bolt alone. No matter what you do, you will have to change other parameters of the valve. These are things that require a total re-work of the valve, and are not something you can just modify an existing valve to do.

Lots of this has been tried by AGD already. Anybody ever notice the 2001 Jax Warrior valve? It has a different valve with a larger powertube:

http://www.automags.org/pic/img/proto/jax_warrior_1_lg.jpg

Tom said the valve worked worse than the current design. There was also the ** smart box, increasing volume. Someone else(I dont remember who) that lowered the volume.

The only difference between the L7 & L10 is the approx 300 psi working pressure, and the minimal amount of air used when it chuffs. Thats a marginal efficiency loss. How many shots do you get out of 300 psi(30 maybe?)?

Oh, how I wish the bolt alone was the answer to the efficiency problems.

[warbeak2099]

Ah. RRFireblade allegedly reworked one of his x-valves for better efficiency with a 12g on his pump mag.

[BigEvil]

Ah. RRFireblade allegedly reworked one of his x-valves for better efficiency with a 12g on his pump mag.

IIRC, it suffers horrible shootdown on anything faster than a pump can shoot. (I dont recall the specifics).

[PsychoBaller]

I think a lot of people are overlooking a small, ANNOYING, feature of the LX Bolt Setup...

Those dang Foamies, that always end up flying off! Gluing Foam to Metal aint that hard to do... but for some reason my CrazyGlue just don't hold up. Maybe I'm shooting to fast...? hah!

I was just reading on Warpig, that the Legend marker has a new "soft-tip" bolt... pretty similar, but maybe a better way to do things? - http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/paintguns/infinity/softbolt/


-baller

[warbeak2099]

There's got to be something you can do to the mag valve design. It just costs time, money, and elves. No one has enough of either...:wall:

[BigEvil]

I think a lot of people are overlooking a small, ANNOYING, feature of the LX Bolt Setup...

Those dang Foamies, that always end up flying off! Gluing Foam to Metal aint that hard to do... but for some reason my CrazyGlue just don't hold up. Maybe I'm shooting to fast...? hah!

I was just reading on Warpig, that the Legend marker has a new "soft-tip" bolt... pretty similar, but maybe a better way to do things? - http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/paintguns/infinity/softbolt/


-baller


Angels have been using them for years. They actually hold up pretty badly. Looks like the same exact ones too.

http://www.fuzionpaintball.com/prodimages/angel_Soft_Face_Bolt_pack_sml.jpg

There are a couple tricks to a successful foamy-gluing. First and most importantly, is that the bolt tip is clean and free of oil. (Which can be touch considering mags are oil whores)

Second is the make sure the bolt is room temperature, and not cold.

Thirdly, the type of crazy glue you are using. There are several differnt types of Cyanoacrylate glues out there. For foamies, I have found the thicker ones stay in place, fill up those little pores best and generally work better than the water thin ones.

http://www.bsiadhesives.com/Pages/hobby/ca.html

Also check out your local hobby shops for them. Zap makes a bunch of different crazy glues also and are probably the ones most readily available over the counter.

Another good place I have dealt with is www.Micro-Mark.com

[snoopay700]

As i recall (this is for the original mag) wasn't there a valve that had a smaller dump chamber, ran at a higher pressure, but got better efficiency?

As for the bolt, i have no complaints, the reset time could be made better, but it would make it even less efficient. It seems this is the best we're going to get unless one of us can manage to take AGD by force and come up with something better.

[Dark Side]

So we stage a coup? Hold on a sec, I'll get my torch. :clap:

[Mechanic79]

I like Level X just the way it is. and I've only had trouble with foamies once.


The only difference between the L7 & L10 is the approx 300 psi working pressure, and the minimal amount of air used when it chuffs. Thats a marginal efficiency loss. How many shots do you get out of 300 psi(30 maybe?)?


Level X can be set up a few different ways for maximum no-chop or more level 7 like. (3 springs and how tight the o-ring carrier is on the bolt and what gun oil you use)

1. I'm curious as to what the level X is set up to for the 300 PSI difference to level 7.
2. Chuffing aside: isn't it really relative 800 psi vs. 500 psi to how many shots you truly get out? I use an 88/4500 psi tank filled to about 3500 for big games and I can get off An Egg and 5 140 round pods without tank drop off. down to about 1200 psi. I'm not saying this is the most efficient but is it worth lower psi for only a 100 or so shots?

I have my Level X set up so it will not come close to crushing anything.
I figure less shots, but in turn to not break even 1 ball, no shot is wasted.

[bryceeden]

The only difference between the L7 & L10 is the approx 300 psi working pressure, and the minimal amount of air used when it chuffs. Thats a marginal efficiency loss. How many shots do you get out of 300 psi(30 maybe?)?


Thats kind of the problem. On alot of markers now 300PSI is a hoppers worth of shots.

[JRingold]

I have my Level X set up so it will not come close to crushing anything.
I figure less shots, but in turn to not break even 1 ball, no shot is wasted.

Well on a feed break anyway... I've seen you waste a lot of shots... :nana:

I like the ability to tune the Level 10 to your needs. If you have eyes, you can tune the Level 10 to be "harder" on paint. If you have a Mechanical, you can tune it to be as soft as you need. The learning curve is a little much, but once you get it figured out, it works just as it is designed. For some reason I seem to go through a carrier o-ring about every 6 months though... Maybe I just need to shoot less, or oil more?

[RogueFactor]

Thats kind of the problem. On alot of markers now 300PSI is a hoppers worth of shots.
Wow. A hopper is 150-170 rounds? Thats like 500-575 shots per 1000. On a 4500 fill, thats 2200-2580 shots. Ive only ever known 1 marker to get those kinds of numbers, and thats a Viking. Youre saying there are allot of markers getting those kinds of numbers? Which ones?

[bryceeden]

Wow. A hopper is 150-170 rounds? Thats like 500-575 shots per 1000. On a 4500 fill, thats 2200-2580 shots. Ive only ever known 1 marker to get those kinds of numbers, and thats a Viking. Youre saying there are allot of markers getting those kinds of numbers? Which ones?


Alot may have been an overstatement, but the Viking and Gen 5 Timmys can do it stock out of the box. You can get Older Timmys, Egos, Marqs, and afew other to get 2000+ with alittle work and tuning. But regardless 30 shots off of 300PSI is just plain sad Rouge, stock Spyders get better than that. I would say an average marker now would get about 1600-1800 on a 4500psi fill.

[Mechanic79]

My point is:

Low pressure allows for a wider gamut of pressure use, but I dont know if that makes it more efficient, just because it's low pressure.

Does high pressure or low pressure decide how efficient your gun is?
I thought it has more to do with valve/reg design?

[warbeak2099]

Low pressure + High volume = More Efficient

Not LP alone. LP alone just means you can shoot deeper into the tank. If you add more volume THEN you can get more shots per psi.

[Mechanic79]

Low pressure + High volume = More Efficient

Not LP alone. LP alone just means you can shoot deeper into the tank. If you add more volume THEN you can get more shots per psi.


Ok, so More Volume of air is somehow less air?
High Pressure = Low Volume of Air to fire the paintball.
Low Pressure = High Volume of Air to fire the paintball.

In theory:
Low Pressure + High Volume (large vessel) = Low Volume + High Pressure (small vessel)
Assuming the vessel containing the air was in equal proportion to each difference.

Does this equal the same stored energy?

I'm not saying I know, I'm just asking questions to try and understand what it is and how to explain what affects efficiency. I hate math.

[snoopay700]

Think of it like this, all guns need roughly the same pressure at the end of the barrel to get the ball going 300 fps, and P1V1=P2V2, or rather pressure before times volume before equals pressure after times pressure after, so that means that if you have a larger dump chamber with less pressure it will equal the same figure as a smaller chamber with higher pressure.

Now then, we can also use the equation PV=nRT, where n is the number of moles, r is a constant (don't remember off the top of my head, i think it's 8.314 times 10 to the something rather or something like that) so we can see that both dump chambers use the same number of moles.

This is basically a way of saying that no matter if you have low pressure or high pressure for the same gun (say a mag) you will still use the same amount of gas (talking mass, not volume) so the pressure in your tank should theoretically drop the same amount. However, lower pressure will still allow you to shoot deeper into your tank, but there are other factors to show which is more efficient, because it's been shown that in mags lower pressure isn't necessarily more efficient. (this is not to say there aren't designs that can be more efficient with low pressure, it just won't work with a mag valve because of the way it works and the air openings in it)

[RogueFactor]

Low pressure + High volume = More Efficient

Low Pressure + High Volume = Slower Recharge rate or Drop-off at High ROF

[mostpeople]

I think it would be possible to at least make the bolt less sensative to environment changes, if not completely remove the need to 'tune' it altogether - and keep the same efficiency.

Rogue and I discussed it last night - but I will keep my idea for the time being because maybe I'll make some scratch someday - and I dont want any ********** tools stealing it :)

[RogueFactor]

Alot may have been an overstatement, but the Viking and Gen 5 Timmys can do it stock out of the box. You can get Older Timmys, Egos, Marqs, and afew other to get 2000+ with alittle work and tuning. But regardless 30 shots off of 300PSI is just plain sad Rogue, stock Spyders get better than that. I would say an average marker now would get about 1600-1800 on a 4500psi fill.

Id say there is a huge difference between 2000+ and 2500. Thats 2+ hoppers of paint.

Ive had buddies with Timmies, the same guys have owned Vikings. Ive never heard them say the Timmies got the same efficiency as their Viking. While those other markers are decent, Ive never heard them equalled to a Viking in efficiency.

Interestingly, I didnt hear you mention any non-poppet and/or blowforward markers(Ie *******, Matrix, ***) that get 2000+. Those may be the markers you are referring to at 1600-1800. But isnt that difference of 200-400 balls around ~2 hoppers of paint? Werent you saying that a hopper of paint is a whole lot off inefficiency?

[Mechanic79]

Think of it like this, all guns need roughly the same pressure at the end of the barrel to get the ball going 300 fps, and P1V1=P2V2, or rather pressure before times volume before equals pressure after times pressure after, so that means that if you have a larger dump chamber with less pressure it will equal the same figure as a smaller chamber with higher pressure.

This is basically a way of saying that no matter if you have low pressure or high pressure for the same gun (say a mag) you will still use the same amount of gas (talking mass, not volume) so the pressure in your tank should theoretically drop the same amount.

OK so being equal pressure to propel the ball 300 fps has nothing to do with efficiency. Efficiency = valve and regulator(s) response times thus effective air management regardless pressure?
This is about efficiency not about shooting deep into the tank or what gun can use a wider pressure gamut.
(though that was a great response and much appreciated)

Low Pressure + High Volume = Slower Recharge rate or Drop-off at High ROF

Fastest point between here (air in tank) and there (air propelling paintball in chamber) is the shortest straightest path possible.
Hence the RT valve needing to be chrono'd a special way due to heat build up which raises pressure.

To build on these last statements:

In theory:
A: slow and steady
Viking shooting 4bps 1200 times = efficiency A
Emag shooting 4bps 1200 times = efficiency B

B: fast and steady (due to faster recharge rate, pressure loss = more heat.)
Viking shooting 20 bps 1200 times = efficiency C
Emag shooting 20 bps 1200 times = efficiency D

So A > C as B > D or opposite or equal?

And if we scientifically knew what A B C D are, we could then compare true efficiency and at different steady shooting?

Thanks all! This is fascinating! I want to follow all of this back to the thread topic as well.

[snoopay700]

OK so being equal pressure to propel the ball 300 fps has nothing to do with efficiency. Efficiency = valve and regulator(s) response times thus effective air management regardless pressure?
This is about efficiency not about shooting deep into the tank or what gun can use a wider pressure gamut.
(though that was a great response and much appreciated)

No, no, i think i wasn't clear, it did have to do with efficiency, basically i was saying that in an ideal world where the lower pressure can recharge just as fast in a mag and operate the mag the same, they would have the exact same efficiency because both chambers use the same number of moles, however we don't live in an ideal world and so i was saying that a lower pressure mag, due to other factors, is less efficient although you can shoot deeper into the tank (this was said as a sort of after thought).

Basically i was showing that both chambers have the same efficiency, so it's other factors about the valve that determine if it's efficient or not.

As for the efficiency between guns, this is something entirely different since they have different designs, and that's what i meant when i said that there can still be more efficient designs.

[bryceeden]

Id say there is a huge difference between 2000+ and 2500. Thats 2+ hoppers of paint.

Ive had buddies with Timmies, the same guys have owned Vikings. Ive never heard them say the Timmies got the same efficiency as their Viking. While those other markers are decent, Ive never heard them equalled to a Viking in efficiency.

Interestingly, I didnt hear you mention any non-poppet and/or blowforward markers(Ie *******, Matrix, ***) that get 2000+. Those may be the markers you are referring to at 1600-1800. But isnt that difference of 200-400 balls around ~2 hoppers of paint? Werent you saying that a hopper of paint is a whole lot off inefficiency?

How many of your buddies had GEN 5 Timmys? All others take some work to get that efficiency. The spool valve isn't as efficient as the poppit, but still 30 shots off of 300PSI is pathetic, Spool valves still get alot better than that. I don't know what the mag's efficency is, and I won't pretend to but earlier you said 30 shots off of 300PSI. I used my classic mag for the first time today, and it worked really really well but it definatly needed to be more efficient. My Marq gets around 1800 shots off of my 68/4500 tank, my Mag on the same tank couldn't even shoot my full pack, when you get that big of a difference its not a good thing. If the LX could be made more efficient it would be a huge benafit to the mag.

[PneuMagger]

Level 10...can it be improved upon?
----------------------
Or is it perfect as it is?

What are your opinions of it? Good, bad, or otherwise.

No, cause then it would be a LVL11!!!
:happydance:

[RogueFactor]

How many of your buddies had GEN 5 Timmys?
I never really took a tally. They are gun whores, and have owned nearly every marker made in the last 5 years.

but still 30 shots off of 300PSI is pathetic, Spool valves still get alot better than that...but earlier you said 30 shots off of 300PSI.
Yes I did. I have a way of over-exaggeration. If you used a Classic Mag, did you notice the tank drop 300 psi after 30 shots? Think about it, 30 shots/300psi is only ~105 shots per 1000, which is only ~470 shots per 4500psi.(ci not considered)
Sorry, I thought this over-exaggeration would have been obvious. My bad.

If the LX could be made more efficient it would be a huge benafit to the mag.
I cant disagree with this. Dont know about huge, but definitly a benefit. Just dont know how much of a benefit though. As said, the L7 is more efficient, just not all that much.

[bryceeden]

Actually my classic got very very poor effiecency to the point I hope there is something wrong with it. I couldn't even get 1000 shots off of my 68 on it. My level 7s I've had befor seemed much better than that, actually my LX E-mag seemed better but was still pretty inefficient.

[RogueFactor]

I don't know what the mag's efficency is, and I won't pretend to

Now you have me baffled. You said earlier you dont know the mags efficiency and dont pretend to. But now you do?

Actually my classic got very very poor effiecency to the point I hope there is something wrong with it. I couldn't even get 1000 shots off of my 68 on it. My level 7s I've had befor seemed much better than that, actually my LX E-mag seemed better but was still pretty inefficient.

[bryceeden]

Now you have me baffled. You said earlier you dont know the mags efficiency and dont pretend to. But now you do?

What I ment is I don't know the normal efficiency for a mag that is set up properly as I don't think mine is tuned exactly right and I truthfully don't remember what I use to get on my other mags.

[Mechanic79]

it's other factors about the valve that determine if it's efficient or not.

As for the efficiency between guns, this is something entirely different since they have different designs, and that's what i meant when i said that there can still be more efficient designs.

That's exactly what I was trying to figure out. Pressure does not make Efficiency.

No, cause then it would be a LVL11!!!
:happydance:
Let's see a Level Xl

My conclusion to the thread post:
To me, knowing that every ball in my hopper will be uesd without breaking, is 100% paint efficiency. This outweighs having a gun with a touch more air efficiency that also has a higher potential of chopping and other issues that are related to the eyes. In theory, having both is great. in practice, eyes just aren't necessary with level X.

I think level X is close to its peak. it's tune-able to each persons set of ideals and equipment. Used with FDA oil, in my case, I have no issues tuning Level X for maximum anti-chop. Tightest o-ring carrier and longest spring, 2 shims.

So can Level X be improved upon? Yes, I'm sure it can. But will it be worth the R&D and any new problems that may surface? I don't know.

[Dark Side]

The answer is a resounding yes. The Lvl 10 can be better.
It came to me while looking at the pic, and studying my Lvl 10.
The bolt in my opinion is the easiest thing to start with; something that can be retrofitted into every other mag thus eliminating the need for people to buy a new rail, valve, body or whatever. It would be the most economical solution to getting Mags back into the limelight. And if I can get the valve design off the ground...

http://www.automags.org/pic/img/lvl10/lvl10_4.jpg


On that note, I need an extra one or 2. Any one willing to part with an old Lvl 10 for Science?

[warbeak2099]

I'm pulling for you DS. If you can pull this off we will sing songs of your valor and make great banners celebrating your name! Well... and give you money..:cheers:

[snoopay700]

Looking at the design i can't see another way to make it as soft as it is on paint and make it more efficient, or a way to make it reset faster without being less efficient (and it rests plenty fast for me). I'm sure there's a way to make it happen, but at this point i just can't think of it right now. What is your idea Dark Side?

[Dark Side]

Looking at the design i can't see another way to make it as soft as it is on paint and make it more efficient, or a way to make it reset faster without being less efficient (and it rests plenty fast for me). I'm sure there's a way to make it happen, but at this point i just can't think of it right now. What is your idea Dark Side?

Tell you what, I start a thread in the tech section for it.

The only problem if you want to call it that. You will have to buy a new bolt. The pay off (keep in mind testing will be done to maximize performance which takes time); you will keep the Antichop ability and gain some efficiency. Not back to Lvl 7 standards but its a trade off I'd make. I have Pmed Rogue with the details to improve the design;its in a rough draft version now. If this does work, I will be giving him the rights to produce/sell them.